HMRC Self Assessment Penalty 3 Years Late
Discussion
Cacking myself a bit.
Out of the blue, I've had a self assessment notice of penalty assessment through today demanding £100 for submitting my self assessment late for the year end 5th April 2012.
Now, firstly I'm completely anal about anything financial and cannot believe if I had known I needed to do the self assessment in this year I would have forgotten about it. The reason I am concerned is that we moved house in 2011, so it's feasible that I may have missed something coming out in the post, but surely I can't rack up 3 years of fees and interest without some form of notice or reminder from HMRC before now? Reading on the net I'm concerned that I may owe them £££ for something I didn't necessarily know about?
Out of the blue, I've had a self assessment notice of penalty assessment through today demanding £100 for submitting my self assessment late for the year end 5th April 2012.
Now, firstly I'm completely anal about anything financial and cannot believe if I had known I needed to do the self assessment in this year I would have forgotten about it. The reason I am concerned is that we moved house in 2011, so it's feasible that I may have missed something coming out in the post, but surely I can't rack up 3 years of fees and interest without some form of notice or reminder from HMRC before now? Reading on the net I'm concerned that I may owe them £££ for something I didn't necessarily know about?
No and no - I was not self employed at the time.
For the year ending April 2011 I had to do a self assessment as my work expenses ran to over £2.5k, which apparently means you have to do self assessment. I have not had any self assessment requests since.
Letter is dated 24th Feb this year.
For the year ending April 2011 I had to do a self assessment as my work expenses ran to over £2.5k, which apparently means you have to do self assessment. I have not had any self assessment requests since.
Letter is dated 24th Feb this year.
tleefox said:
Cacking myself a bit.
Out of the blue, I've had a self assessment notice of penalty assessment through today demanding £100 for submitting my self assessment late for the year end 5th April 2012.
This doesn't add up. Do you normally complete a tax return each year? Penalty for a return that's Out of the blue, I've had a self assessment notice of penalty assessment through today demanding £100 for submitting my self assessment late for the year end 5th April 2012.
Are you self-employed, or a (powerfully built) company director? Basic rules about when you need to submit a return are here, but typically once you've submitted one, they then require you to submit one every year...
https://www.gov.uk/self-assessment-tax-returns/who...
Updated:
Sounds like it could be they asked you to submit a return but didn't have the right address. Any reason why they've suddenly got it right now? Change of job, maybe?
I'd try ringing up the HMRC helpline. I had to do that a while ago and they were surprisingly helpful. Say no tax was due (if it wasn't!) and that you never received a request to complete the return. You'll probably still need to complete one, anyway. Hope you';ve got the records!
Edited by silentbrown on Wednesday 4th March 20:09
silentbrown said:
Are you self-employed, or a (powerfully built) company director? Basic rules about when you need to submit a return are here, but typically once you've submitted one, they then require you to submit one every year...
https://www.gov.uk/self-assessment-tax-returns/who...
Neither I'm afraid.https://www.gov.uk/self-assessment-tax-returns/who...
Out of the blue one year I had a notification from the HMRC that I was required to submit a self assessment - I did this well in time and have copies of what I submitted to them for that year. Now that I think about it I even have a vague recollection of them sending me a letter saying I would no longer be required to do self assessments.
Never since have I had anything asking me to complete a self assessment.
Edited by tleefox on Wednesday 4th March 20:07
silentbrown said:
Updated:
Sounds like it could be they asked you to submit a return but didn't have the right address. Any reason why they've suddenly got it right now? Change of job, maybe?
I have just changed jobs, so this seems like a probability.Sounds like it could be they asked you to submit a return but didn't have the right address. Any reason why they've suddenly got it right now? Change of job, maybe?
Edited by silentbrown on Wednesday 4th March 20:09
Forget the macho bollux suggested by some.
Ring up HMRC soonest and ask them what it's all about. Remember, you're asking the questions and they are answering.
Don't dig a hole for yourself by giving them information. Then, after the phone call, decide how best to move forwards.
Proceed with caution. But don't ignore it and hope it goes away.....14[/footnote]
Ring up HMRC soonest and ask them what it's all about. Remember, you're asking the questions and they are answering.
Don't dig a hole for yourself by giving them information. Then, after the phone call, decide how best to move forwards.
Proceed with caution. But don't ignore it and hope it goes away.....14[/footnote]
Edited by Claudia Skies on Thursday 5th March 00:15
[quote=Claudia Skies]Forget the macho bollux suggested by some.
Ring up HMRC soonest and ask them what it's all about. Remember, you're asking the questions and they are answering.
Don't dig a hole for yourself by giving them information. Then, after the phone call, decide how best to move forwards.
Proceed with caution. But don't ignore it and hope it goes away.....14[/footnote]
Good advice but I would write a short letter outlining the facts as you see them, tell them you do not think it is reasonable that after 3 years this appears and say you dispute the matter.
Send recorded delivery and in all likelihood they will confirm end of matter. Ringing them is a risk as they don't have any ownership of matters and the people on the end of the phone are pre-programmed to reiterate the contents of the letter. The moment you dispute something they invariably tell you to write in. The Tax tribunals are littered with cases where HMRC telephone notes differ from the Customer and always in HMRC's favour.
Ring up HMRC soonest and ask them what it's all about. Remember, you're asking the questions and they are answering.
Don't dig a hole for yourself by giving them information. Then, after the phone call, decide how best to move forwards.
Proceed with caution. But don't ignore it and hope it goes away.....14[/footnote]
Good advice but I would write a short letter outlining the facts as you see them, tell them you do not think it is reasonable that after 3 years this appears and say you dispute the matter.
Send recorded delivery and in all likelihood they will confirm end of matter. Ringing them is a risk as they don't have any ownership of matters and the people on the end of the phone are pre-programmed to reiterate the contents of the letter. The moment you dispute something they invariably tell you to write in. The Tax tribunals are littered with cases where HMRC telephone notes differ from the Customer and always in HMRC's favour.
Claudia Skies said:
Ring up HMRC soonest and ask them what it's all about.
Don't dig a hole for yourself by giving them information.
Proceed with caution. But don't ignore it and hope it goes away
+100 to the bits in bold. Sending a letter is also a good follow-up. Don't dig a hole for yourself by giving them information.
Proceed with caution. But don't ignore it and hope it goes away
But I don't get the "don't give them information" - What particular information are you concerned about?
I'd say it's OK to state facts like "never received a request", but don't make excuses like "forgot to tell you of address change".
It's perfectly possible that HRMC thinks you need to file a tax return for 2011/12, because you did for 2010/11, but actually you don't.
They have a set of questions ( https://www.gov.uk/self-assessment-tax-returns/who...) they will run through to check whether you have a Self Assessment requirement. Ask to go through those, and if they come up negative, HMRC will cancel the tax return and any related penalties and interest. I have done this many times for clients.
They have a set of questions ( https://www.gov.uk/self-assessment-tax-returns/who...) they will run through to check whether you have a Self Assessment requirement. Ask to go through those, and if they come up negative, HMRC will cancel the tax return and any related penalties and interest. I have done this many times for clients.
Thanks for the help and pointers thus far guys.
Just got off the phone to the pre-programmed "computer says no" lady on the helpline. Summary of events is that I was required to submit a self assessment as my expenses for the year ending April 2012 were in excess of £2500, which I cannot confirm but probably agree with.
I am 100% confident I never received the SA notice - as per my previous statement I am completely anal about anything financial and tax related so if I had received it I would have done it. She also said that they had a record of various letters sent back to them as we were no longer at the address they had on file.
As it stands at the minute I have racked up penalties of £1600 plus the £100 late payment charge - her advice was to get the self assessment in and go from there.
What do we think my chances of contesting the fines are? Surely in the intervening 3 years they would have picked up my new address from P11d's, P60's etc, or is it just my problem, end of sports?
Just got off the phone to the pre-programmed "computer says no" lady on the helpline. Summary of events is that I was required to submit a self assessment as my expenses for the year ending April 2012 were in excess of £2500, which I cannot confirm but probably agree with.
I am 100% confident I never received the SA notice - as per my previous statement I am completely anal about anything financial and tax related so if I had received it I would have done it. She also said that they had a record of various letters sent back to them as we were no longer at the address they had on file.
As it stands at the minute I have racked up penalties of £1600 plus the £100 late payment charge - her advice was to get the self assessment in and go from there.
What do we think my chances of contesting the fines are? Surely in the intervening 3 years they would have picked up my new address from P11d's, P60's etc, or is it just my problem, end of sports?
tleefox said:
As it stands at the minute I have racked up penalties of £1600 plus the £100 late payment charge - her advice was to get the self assessment in and go from there.
Ouch. The problem is that the penalty is not for overdue tax, but simply for late filing.Personally, this would be the point that I got professional help. I'd expect a decent accountant would give you a free overview of what's involved, likelihood of success and an estimate of their charges.
IANATL, but I thought that you only /legally/ have to do self assessment if you have income not already deducted via PAYE etc OR if HMRC write to you and tell you that you have to do one
Taxes Management Act 1970 s7
HMRC EM4551
Did HMRC confirm over the phone that a letter was actually sent to you notifying you that a tax return was due? What about subsequent years, surely you'll have the same problem?
When did you move?
Taxes Management Act 1970 s7
HMRC EM4551
Did HMRC confirm over the phone that a letter was actually sent to you notifying you that a tax return was due? What about subsequent years, surely you'll have the same problem?
When did you move?
Edited by essayer on Thursday 5th March 11:20
I've just sat down and written a timeline of all of this based on what I know, and it doesn't make sense to me.
When I spoke to the woman on the phone earlier she said that the reason I was flagged up was that I had submitted a form P87d for tax relief on employment expenses, which is true. As the amount I was claiming tax relief on was over £2500 (N.B - for that year only!) she said they wrote to me telling me I needed to do a self assessment, which based on the form I have received would have been for the year ending 5th April 2012.
Where I get confused is that we moved house in October 2011 - the P87d form cannot be submitted until after the end of the financial year you are claiming for, so in this case after April 2012, so the P87d I submitted would have had our new address on it anyway.
So confused!
When I spoke to the woman on the phone earlier she said that the reason I was flagged up was that I had submitted a form P87d for tax relief on employment expenses, which is true. As the amount I was claiming tax relief on was over £2500 (N.B - for that year only!) she said they wrote to me telling me I needed to do a self assessment, which based on the form I have received would have been for the year ending 5th April 2012.
Where I get confused is that we moved house in October 2011 - the P87d form cannot be submitted until after the end of the financial year you are claiming for, so in this case after April 2012, so the P87d I submitted would have had our new address on it anyway.
So confused!
oyster said:
When I've moved I've kept a spreadhseet of all I have contacted and had confirmations from.
I'd recommend getting your post redirected for 12 months. Anybody you need to keep in touch with will send you stuff once a year. https://www.royalmail.com/personal/receiving-mail/...Just had a similar £100 fine letter, none return of self assessment for tax year2013/14. I was one of those caught in the over £50kPAYE but getting child benefit catch. I didn't realise once in the self assessment system it carried on. So I assume I have paid the correct tax for the year2013/14(based on tax code notification personal allowance minus child benefit?) but am getting stuffed for the fine! Lettered dated 18th Feb paying fine tomorrow, but am I racking up charges until a form is returned! Now I admit this is my fault, I even found the tax return form so filled it and posted it this evening.
If you were not required to fill it, there can be no reasonable basis to fine, can there ?
I have it even as one of the official reasons to 'object' (although this is a last year penalty of £100).
One thing for sure is not to rely on them to tell via post you if you need or need it not, but do check it yourself.
I have it even as one of the official reasons to 'object' (although this is a last year penalty of £100).
One thing for sure is not to rely on them to tell via post you if you need or need it not, but do check it yourself.
Edited by chris7676 on Friday 6th March 10:26
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