Care homes and money

Care homes and money

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Discussion

Matttracker

Original Poster:

630 posts

146 months

Saturday 14th March 2015
quotequote all
This is a question on behalf of my mother really. But any advice is much appreciated.

My dad is 85 with severe Alzheimer's and my mum who is 70 is struggling with him at home. And he will be going into a home I would expect on a permanent basis. We currently have carers coming in morning and night but they are sometimes more than useless.

They have Saving of around 70k put away and the house is paid for.
Is there anything she can do to stop the savings dwindling to very little as she is worried about having not much left to look after herself.
She has mentioned putting some of it away it in an account in my name or similar. But I can't see that would help as if just pay a load of tax on it.

I know the threshold is about £22k before you get some help for the local authority. The care home is around £900 a week.

Countdown

39,687 posts

195 months

Saturday 14th March 2015
quotequote all
Hi

Sorry to hear that. It must be pretty heartbreaking for you and your mum. Given the savings your parents have I think they would need to pay some or all of the care home fees (assuming this is a private care home and not an LA one?)For private care homes, if you meet the criteria for full financial support, the LA will only pay a certain amount, somebody else will need to meet the difference between what the LA pays and what the home charges.

This link may be of help.

http://www.alzheimers.org.uk/site/scripts/document...

Claudia Skies

1,098 posts

115 months

Saturday 14th March 2015
quotequote all
I'm sorry to hear you have this difficult situation.

You may find this link helpful, because a local authority can investigate if it believes money has been given away deliberately to avoid care home fees. They do carry out means-testing assessments.

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/experts/article...

Simpo Two

85,147 posts

264 months

Saturday 14th March 2015
quotequote all
Have you looked at other care homes? They don't need plush carpets and gold taps, just good care and staff who understand the condition. The latter is probably the most important thing.

I can't be more specific because every county is different. Essex CC Social Services are particular bds.

Matttracker

Original Poster:

630 posts

146 months

Saturday 14th March 2015
quotequote all
Thankyou for those answers, some interesting points I was not aware of, like the changes coming up in 2016, assuming they do.

I have looked at most of the care homes nearby, and there is a whole spectrum of difference. ranging from £500-1200 per week.
Some of the expensive ones, were made in old knocked through houses, with a massive "Lounge" of elderly dementia patients all groaning away in their chairs, This really shocked me and was a pretty horrific reality check! Its such a horrible disease, I wouldn't wish it on anyone. the others have been much better set ups, esp for dementia with Square corridors, that loop around so my Dad who likes a wander would end up in the same place over and over, little lounges with smaller groups of people.
How people work in them amazes me.
There is a cheaper option at £550 pw which is also the council one and I would say the 2nd best of all the 7 I visited. and it didn't smell. He stayed in the expensive one over christmas after an operation and he seemed content there from what my mum was saying.

An interesting point was that they only take 1/2 the savings in to account, basically I'm not after having everything transferred in to my name, but just want to make sure my mum has choice of a nice few years as well, without the pot dwindling down for just dad.
I'm not trying to avoid paying for everything, not that anyone has suggested this.

Beggarall

550 posts

240 months

Saturday 14th March 2015
quotequote all
It is a sad situation. My mother is now in a care home but fortunately has enough to fund it. However, there are a number of ways you might explore to help with the costs. Unfortunately I think there may be a bit of a post-code lottery as to what funding help is available but we were told that had she gone into a "nursing home" rather than a residential home there might have been some funding available from the local PCG (or whatever they are called nowadays). If your Dad has severe Alzheimers he might meet criteria for continuing care funding (again I think depends on area). I am sure it would be worth your while exploring all the local agencies starting with your GP and maybe getting advice from support groups/charities such as Age Concern or the Alzheimers Association. Good luck.

Simpo Two

85,147 posts

264 months

Saturday 14th March 2015
quotequote all
Continuing Care Funding is the Holy Grail - essentially, if the patient's needs are MEDICAL as opposed to just CARE then the NHS steps in and foots the bill. Unfortunately you can be a blind paralysed vegetable and it's still not regarded as 'medical'. There is a notion that dementia is starting to be taken more seriously, but that's countered by the fact there's very little money out there and PCTs etc are clinging harder and harder onto it. There are some official tests that will give a score to see how far your father is towards qualifying, but if my mother's experience was anything to go by - well, don't hold your breath. I found Social Services the most nasty, cowardly, self-protecting but dangerously powerful group of people I've ever had to deal with, and had a bitter running fight with them for 3 years.

On your side, you have http://alzheimers.org.uk/ who are well worth contacting now. From now on I'm afraid you'll be managing two and possibly three lives, not just one.

Hoofy

76,253 posts

281 months

Saturday 14th March 2015
quotequote all
Matttracker said:
Some of the expensive ones, were made in old knocked through houses, with a massive "Lounge" of elderly dementia patients all groaning away in their chairs, This really shocked me and was a pretty horrific reality check!

Its such a horrible disease, I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

the others have been much better set ups, esp for dementia with Square corridors, that loop around so my Dad who likes a wander would end up in the same place over and over, little lounges with smaller groups of people.

How people work in them amazes me.
(Can't be arsed to quote and unquote 4 times.)
a) It's not too bad for them. They will be able to make friends, especially if they cannot move much, plus they can do group activities like bingo (although that tends to be more women who enjoy that game)
b) Yes, it is!
c) That's quite clever. Combined with a shot short term memory, he can explore for hours. hehe Only problem comes when it's time for bed as he'll then have to trace his steps for 4 hours. wink
d) Yes, I tried it for a few months. Decided that the environment wasn't for me. Depressed the hell out of me!

98elise

26,366 posts

160 months

Saturday 14th March 2015
quotequote all
Countdown said:
Hi

Sorry to hear that. It must be pretty heartbreaking for you and your mum. Given the savings your parents have I think they would need to pay some or all of the care home fees (assuming this is a private care home and not an LA one?)For private care homes, if you meet the criteria for full financial support, the LA will only pay a certain amount, somebody else will need to meet the difference between what the LA pays and what the home charges.

This link may be of help.

http://www.alzheimers.org.uk/site/scripts/document...
This really worries me.

My partners parents are rapidly becoming incapable (both are currently in hospital) They have no money and live in rented acomodation.

They may well need to go into a home soon, yet neither they nor their kids have the money to pay for it. What happens when they qualify for full financial support, but nobody has the money to pay for the extra thats needed

I suspect i am suddenly going to be presented with a very big bill each month.

Edit....having now looked into it i think I'm going to be in for a reaming. Care for both of them will be well ove £1k per week. They have nothing as they are pensioners renting a property.

I was expecting to retire in the next few years, but it now looks like that will be on hold while I pay for their care frown




Edited by 98elise on Sunday 15th March 08:45

susanq

638 posts

174 months

Tuesday 17th March 2015
quotequote all
98elise said:
This really worries me.

My partners parents are rapidly becoming incapable (both are currently in hospital) They have no money and live in rented acomodation.

They may well need to go into a home soon, yet neither they nor their kids have the money to pay for it. What happens when they qualify for full financial support, but nobody has the money to pay for the extra thats needed

I suspect i am suddenly going to be presented with a very big bill each month.

Edit....having now looked into it i think I'm going to be in for a reaming. Care for both of them will be well ove £1k per week. They have nothing as they are pensioners renting a property.

I was expecting to retire in the next few years, but it now looks like that will be on hold while I pay for their care frown




Edited by 98elise on Sunday 15th March 08:45
I don't think they'll be coming after you for the money, will they? I think they use any income/pension belonging to the recipient of care to make up the difference in local authority contributions.

98elise

26,366 posts

160 months

Tuesday 17th March 2015
quotequote all
susanq said:
98elise said:
This really worries me.

My partners parents are rapidly becoming incapable (both are currently in hospital) They have no money and live in rented acomodation.

They may well need to go into a home soon, yet neither they nor their kids have the money to pay for it. What happens when they qualify for full financial support, but nobody has the money to pay for the extra thats needed

I suspect i am suddenly going to be presented with a very big bill each month.

Edit....having now looked into it i think I'm going to be in for a reaming. Care for both of them will be well ove £1k per week. They have nothing as they are pensioners renting a property.

I was expecting to retire in the next few years, but it now looks like that will be on hold while I pay for their care frown




Edited by 98elise on Sunday 15th March 08:45
I don't think they'll be coming after you for the money, will they? I think they use any income/pension belonging to the recipient of care to make up the difference in local authority contributions.
The way I read it they assess how much you should recieve, then you have to make up the rest depending on what the cost of the care home is.

I know from friends of my parents that they (as in the kids) needed to contribute as their parents funds didn't cover it. Neither my partner nor her brother earn enough to pay for the care as neither are in well paid jobs. It would seem that if someone doesn't pay, then the is no option to go into care.

Thats why i think it will end up coming my way,

I might be wrong, but thats the way I see it.

WinstonWolf

72,857 posts

238 months

Tuesday 17th March 2015
quotequote all
Simpo Two said:
Continuing Care Funding is the Holy Grail - essentially, if the patient's needs are MEDICAL as opposed to just CARE then the NHS steps in and foots the bill. Unfortunately you can be a blind paralysed vegetable and it's still not regarded as 'medical'. There is a notion that dementia is starting to be taken more seriously, but that's countered by the fact there's very little money out there and PCTs etc are clinging harder and harder onto it. There are some official tests that will give a score to see how far your father is towards qualifying, but if my mother's experience was anything to go by - well, don't hold your breath. I found Social Services the most nasty, cowardly, self-protecting but dangerously powerful group of people I've ever had to deal with, and had a bitter running fight with them for 3 years.

On your side, you have http://alzheimers.org.uk/ who are well worth contacting now. From now on I'm afraid you'll be managing two and possibly three lives, not just one.
Social services aren't the ones you need on side, it's the NHS. If your relative needs one to one care then you might me lucky enough to qualify for Continuing Care, otherwise bills can run to over £2k per week (yes week!)

anonymous-user

53 months

Tuesday 17th March 2015
quotequote all
Yep my mum is currently in a nice, but by no means luxurious home.

£1500 a week. Plus any medical stuff. And hair, and feet.

I haven't got my head round what needs to be up with you to qualify for certain non means-tested allowances as they seem to make it up as they go along.

It would be a full time job to look after her at home, at least 18 hours a day, probably round the clock.

Muzzer79

9,805 posts

186 months

Tuesday 17th March 2015
quotequote all
98elise said:
susanq said:
98elise said:
This really worries me.

My partners parents are rapidly becoming incapable (both are currently in hospital) They have no money and live in rented acomodation.

They may well need to go into a home soon, yet neither they nor their kids have the money to pay for it. What happens when they qualify for full financial support, but nobody has the money to pay for the extra thats needed

I suspect i am suddenly going to be presented with a very big bill each month.

Edit....having now looked into it i think I'm going to be in for a reaming. Care for both of them will be well ove £1k per week. They have nothing as they are pensioners renting a property.

I was expecting to retire in the next few years, but it now looks like that will be on hold while I pay for their care frown




Edited by 98elise on Sunday 15th March 08:45
I don't think they'll be coming after you for the money, will they? I think they use any income/pension belonging to the recipient of care to make up the difference in local authority contributions.
The way I read it they assess how much you should recieve, then you have to make up the rest depending on what the cost of the care home is.

I know from friends of my parents that they (as in the kids) needed to contribute as their parents funds didn't cover it. Neither my partner nor her brother earn enough to pay for the care as neither are in well paid jobs. It would seem that if someone doesn't pay, then the is no option to go into care.

Thats why i think it will end up coming my way,

I might be wrong, but thats the way I see it.
My Nan has just gone into a care home

She has, comparatively nothing - no house (she's rented all her life) very little savings

Her home is very pleasant but my uncle and Mum do not contribute towards it......

The authorities deduct a certain amount (not all) from Nan's pension but the rest is LA funded.

mph1977

12,467 posts

167 months

Tuesday 17th March 2015
quotequote all
if people are deemed to require Nursing care there is an NHS contribution to Care home fees - iirc it's approx 110 gbp/ week

Continuing care funding for people with dementia is hard to come by unless their behaviour is extremely challenging even with optimised medications and good compliance - however if you are lucky enough to get it it could meet the full costs - however the criteria to get full continuing care funding means that someone will have a very high level of care needs.

for those with savings the residential element of the fees will end up eating into the savings unless they have very very good pension provision to meet the couple of thousand a month in fees ...

WinstonWolf

72,857 posts

238 months

Tuesday 17th March 2015
quotequote all
mph1977 said:
if people are deemed to require Nursing care there is an NHS contribution to Care home fees - iirc it's approx 110 gbp/ week

Continuing care funding for people with dementia is hard to come by unless their behaviour is extremely challenging even with optimised medications and good compliance - however if you are lucky enough to get it it could meet the full costs - however the criteria to get full continuing care funding means that someone will have a very high level of care needs.

for those with savings the residential element of the fees will end up eating into the savings unless they have very very good pension provision to meet the couple of thousand a month in fees ...
Couple of thousand a week where my dad is, pretty much everyone is fully funded as its a head injury unit. People there are very very poorly.

mph1977

12,467 posts

167 months

Tuesday 17th March 2015
quotequote all
WinstonWolf said:
mph1977 said:
if people are deemed to require Nursing care there is an NHS contribution to Care home fees - iirc it's approx 110 gbp/ week

Continuing care funding for people with dementia is hard to come by unless their behaviour is extremely challenging even with optimised medications and good compliance - however if you are lucky enough to get it it could meet the full costs - however the criteria to get full continuing care funding means that someone will have a very high level of care needs.

for those with savings the residential element of the fees will end up eating into the savings unless they have very very good pension provision to meet the couple of thousand a month in fees ...
Couple of thousand a week where my dad is, pretty much everyone is fully funded as its a head injury unit. People there are very very poorly.
that's the level of need to get get fully funded Continuing care - i've worked in an Acute hospital Spinal injuries unit and only a small fraction of the patients got continuing care funding on discharge .... even being a quadriplegic is not enough , quadriplegic needing respiratory support or having such a ropy swallow that you need 24/7 carers to be able to suction / assisted cough and look after your tube feed is the kind of levle of dependency that just scrapes it ...

Simpo Two

85,147 posts

264 months

Tuesday 17th March 2015
quotequote all
WinstonWolf said:
Social services aren't the ones you need on side, it's the NHS. If your relative needs one to one care then you might me lucky enough to qualify for Continuing Care, otherwise bills can run to over £2k per week (yes week!)
The NHS isn't interested in Alzheimers. It's care issue not a medical issue.

The Council has a duty of care; what would happen if the patient had no money and no relatives to make up the difference? A Council care home and/or some other benefit to make up any difference. The system doesn't demand money from relatives; their money is separate.

mph1977

12,467 posts

167 months

Tuesday 17th March 2015
quotequote all
Simpo Two said:
WinstonWolf said:
Social services aren't the ones you need on side, it's the NHS. If your relative needs one to one care then you might me lucky enough to qualify for Continuing Care, otherwise bills can run to over £2k per week (yes week!)
The NHS isn't interested in Alzheimers. It's care issue not a medical issue.

The Council has a duty of care; what would happen if the patient had no money and no relatives to make up the difference? A Council care home and/or some other benefit to make up any difference. The system doesn't demand money from relatives; their money is separate.
If healthcare isn't interested Demewntia why are there dementia services run by the Mental Health trusts and people in Care homes who get the Nursing contribution from the NHS based solely on their cognitive impairment

I don;t think you understand exactly how 'high care' you need to be to get continuing care funding

WinstonWolf

72,857 posts

238 months

Wednesday 18th March 2015
quotequote all
mph1977 said:
Simpo Two said:
WinstonWolf said:
Social services aren't the ones you need on side, it's the NHS. If your relative needs one to one care then you might me lucky enough to qualify for Continuing Care, otherwise bills can run to over £2k per week (yes week!)
The NHS isn't interested in Alzheimers. It's care issue not a medical issue.

The Council has a duty of care; what would happen if the patient had no money and no relatives to make up the difference? A Council care home and/or some other benefit to make up any difference. The system doesn't demand money from relatives; their money is separate.
If healthcare isn't interested Demewntia why are there dementia services run by the Mental Health trusts and people in Care homes who get the Nursing contribution from the NHS based solely on their cognitive impairment

I don;t think you understand exactly how 'high care' you need to be to get continuing care funding
yes There's dementia and there's dementia. If you can use cutlery you haven't got a chance of funding, it's when the patient doesn't know how to use their false teeth CCR becomes more likely.