Nutmeg online investment - opinions?
Discussion
Badda said:
Thanks for the clarification. It was slightly misleading to just blithely say 'I don't provide a similar service' when you have until very recently. Your website implies it's coming back and your twitter feed is still there.
Still, life's too short to argue. All the best with the new company.
It has been down since 2017 or so. I’d love to bring it back. It is indeed, and the sun is out. Still, life's too short to argue. All the best with the new company.
Badda said:
DonkeyApple said:
On this thread why don’t you discuss the complexities and costs that you found when you were looking to build up your fiveraday service and the impacts of performance in client retention with such a service and the type of client and how that does it r doesn’t vary from the norm? You have direct and key insight into this market place and would be a tremendous contributor to this thread if you wanted to be and I think that we would all be very grateful for it.
With many of his clients from PH, I think this would be a pretty unethical thing to do,I would like to hear it however.
Derek Chevalier said:
Given some of the robo advisers' performance, and the track record of the typical private investor, especially when given access to an app that allows them to buy/sell 24/7 (or at least place orders when market is closed), I would question how much of a return in excess over deposit rates the average robo investor investor has enjoyed.
https://www.muchmorewithless.co.uk/robo-adviser-results-nutmeg-and-wealthify-vs-vanguard-year-2/Derek Chevalier said:
Derek Chevalier said:
Given some of the robo advisers' performance, and the track record of the typical private investor, especially when given access to an app that allows them to buy/sell 24/7 (or at least place orders when market is closed), I would question how much of a return in excess over deposit rates the average robo investor investor has enjoyed.
https://www.muchmorewithless.co.uk/robo-adviser-results-nutmeg-and-wealthify-vs-vanguard-year-2/"I will merely note that the company offering the highest cashback has performed worst for me, and the company offering zip all cashback did best."
Cashbacks and incentives are a really difficult area. On the one hand you would naturally assume that with two competitive products the one needing to offer tacky incentives is the one to avoid but on the flip side, 20 years into our ‘shop till we drop’ marathon there are monumental numbers of consumers who think the opposite.
It is just one of the most baffling consumer changes that I’ve seen. Twenty years ago we’d laugh at the really rubbish products offering a free Parker pen when you sign up but now to access the wider consumer market for perfectly legitimate products you have to be on Groupon etc.
It’s all about the price tag and the discount no longer the quality. When did you last see someone who was buying an expensive item of clothing check the stitching, the quality of the cloth or how the cut allows it to sit on them? Just doesn’t happen. Consumers are drawn to the item by the brand or a picture of someone off of TV , the number after the pound sign explains whether it is valuble or not and the deal is closed by the size of the imaginary discount.
Actual quality is almost irrelevant at the lower end of the market you just have to flog your schmutter like you’re offloading knock-off tat down a side road from the street market.
Nutmeg has positioned itself down there and even if they were the best at what they did I think they would still have to offer discounts, nectar points, a chance to smell a D list celebrity’s fart, vouchers for something no one really wants and all that drivel.
Nutmeg just have massive overheads that are not remotely appropriate for an ultra low cost, high tech start up. And have targeted a client base that can never generate them more income than the cost of acquisition and ongoing manintenance.
But one question that I would ask is that would we genuinely ever expect a discount investment product targeting this area of the market to outperform big products or higher cost options? I wouldn’t.
It’s aboit offering a basic savings product to the masses who can’t and/or wouldn’t pay for a top end IM, those who only understand the world of non human interaction and need to only deal with computers and bots, those who must be doing the same thing as everyone around them because being outside of that bubble genuinely terrifies them and those who know that they need to be saving but just don’t want the personal responsibility of the act.
I still feel that robo offers a vital role in the consumer market and I don’t actually think that performance in terms of expecting outperformance is important but I do feel that if you are selling a very low net revenue product and having to incur high marketing costs then if you are paying huge top end salaries, London salaries throughout the rest of the business and London rents then you simply aren’t a business but one massive gamble with other people’s money that a bigger player will take you out using a load of other investor money.
Like many ‘Fintechs’ their actual existence in central London is part of the farce.
It is just one of the most baffling consumer changes that I’ve seen. Twenty years ago we’d laugh at the really rubbish products offering a free Parker pen when you sign up but now to access the wider consumer market for perfectly legitimate products you have to be on Groupon etc.
It’s all about the price tag and the discount no longer the quality. When did you last see someone who was buying an expensive item of clothing check the stitching, the quality of the cloth or how the cut allows it to sit on them? Just doesn’t happen. Consumers are drawn to the item by the brand or a picture of someone off of TV , the number after the pound sign explains whether it is valuble or not and the deal is closed by the size of the imaginary discount.
Actual quality is almost irrelevant at the lower end of the market you just have to flog your schmutter like you’re offloading knock-off tat down a side road from the street market.
Nutmeg has positioned itself down there and even if they were the best at what they did I think they would still have to offer discounts, nectar points, a chance to smell a D list celebrity’s fart, vouchers for something no one really wants and all that drivel.
Nutmeg just have massive overheads that are not remotely appropriate for an ultra low cost, high tech start up. And have targeted a client base that can never generate them more income than the cost of acquisition and ongoing manintenance.
But one question that I would ask is that would we genuinely ever expect a discount investment product targeting this area of the market to outperform big products or higher cost options? I wouldn’t.
It’s aboit offering a basic savings product to the masses who can’t and/or wouldn’t pay for a top end IM, those who only understand the world of non human interaction and need to only deal with computers and bots, those who must be doing the same thing as everyone around them because being outside of that bubble genuinely terrifies them and those who know that they need to be saving but just don’t want the personal responsibility of the act.
I still feel that robo offers a vital role in the consumer market and I don’t actually think that performance in terms of expecting outperformance is important but I do feel that if you are selling a very low net revenue product and having to incur high marketing costs then if you are paying huge top end salaries, London salaries throughout the rest of the business and London rents then you simply aren’t a business but one massive gamble with other people’s money that a bigger player will take you out using a load of other investor money.
Like many ‘Fintechs’ their actual existence in central London is part of the farce.
DonkeyApple said:
Cashbacks and incentives are a really difficult area. On the one hand you would naturally assume that with two competitive products the one needing to offer tacky incentives is the one to avoid but on the flip side, 20 years into our ‘shop till we drop’ marathon there are monumental numbers of consumers who think the opposite.
It is just one of the most baffling consumer changes that I’ve seen. Twenty years ago we’d laugh at the really rubbish products offering a free Parker pen when you sign up but now to access the wider consumer market for perfectly legitimate products you have to be on Groupon etc.
It’s all about the price tag and the discount no longer the quality. When did you last see someone who was buying an expensive item of clothing check the stitching, the quality of the cloth or how the cut allows it to sit on them? Just doesn’t happen. Consumers are drawn to the item by the brand or a picture of someone off of TV , the number after the pound sign explains whether it is valuble or not and the deal is closed by the size of the imaginary discount.
Actual quality is almost irrelevant at the lower end of the market you just have to flog your schmutter like you’re offloading knock-off tat down a side road from the street market.
Nutmeg has positioned itself down there and even if they were the best at what they did I think they would still have to offer discounts, nectar points, a chance to smell a D list celebrity’s fart, vouchers for something no one really wants and all that drivel.
Nutmeg just have massive overheads that are not remotely appropriate for an ultra low cost, high tech start up. And have targeted a client base that can never generate them more income than the cost of acquisition and ongoing manintenance.
But one question that I would ask is that would we genuinely ever expect a discount investment product targeting this area of the market to outperform big products or higher cost options? I wouldn’t.
It’s aboit offering a basic savings product to the masses who can’t and/or wouldn’t pay for a top end IM, those who only understand the world of non human interaction and need to only deal with computers and bots, those who must be doing the same thing as everyone around them because being outside of that bubble genuinely terrifies them and those who know that they need to be saving but just don’t want the personal responsibility of the act.
I still feel that robo offers a vital role in the consumer market and I don’t actually think that performance in terms of expecting outperformance is important but I do feel that if you are selling a very low net revenue product and having to incur high marketing costs then if you are paying huge top end salaries, London salaries throughout the rest of the business and London rents then you simply aren’t a business but one massive gamble with other people’s money that a bigger player will take you out using a load of other investor money.
Like many ‘Fintechs’ their actual existence in central London is part of the farce.
Very well put.It is just one of the most baffling consumer changes that I’ve seen. Twenty years ago we’d laugh at the really rubbish products offering a free Parker pen when you sign up but now to access the wider consumer market for perfectly legitimate products you have to be on Groupon etc.
It’s all about the price tag and the discount no longer the quality. When did you last see someone who was buying an expensive item of clothing check the stitching, the quality of the cloth or how the cut allows it to sit on them? Just doesn’t happen. Consumers are drawn to the item by the brand or a picture of someone off of TV , the number after the pound sign explains whether it is valuble or not and the deal is closed by the size of the imaginary discount.
Actual quality is almost irrelevant at the lower end of the market you just have to flog your schmutter like you’re offloading knock-off tat down a side road from the street market.
Nutmeg has positioned itself down there and even if they were the best at what they did I think they would still have to offer discounts, nectar points, a chance to smell a D list celebrity’s fart, vouchers for something no one really wants and all that drivel.
Nutmeg just have massive overheads that are not remotely appropriate for an ultra low cost, high tech start up. And have targeted a client base that can never generate them more income than the cost of acquisition and ongoing manintenance.
But one question that I would ask is that would we genuinely ever expect a discount investment product targeting this area of the market to outperform big products or higher cost options? I wouldn’t.
It’s aboit offering a basic savings product to the masses who can’t and/or wouldn’t pay for a top end IM, those who only understand the world of non human interaction and need to only deal with computers and bots, those who must be doing the same thing as everyone around them because being outside of that bubble genuinely terrifies them and those who know that they need to be saving but just don’t want the personal responsibility of the act.
I still feel that robo offers a vital role in the consumer market and I don’t actually think that performance in terms of expecting outperformance is important but I do feel that if you are selling a very low net revenue product and having to incur high marketing costs then if you are paying huge top end salaries, London salaries throughout the rest of the business and London rents then you simply aren’t a business but one massive gamble with other people’s money that a bigger player will take you out using a load of other investor money.
Like many ‘Fintechs’ their actual existence in central London is part of the farce.
There is a place for ‘basic’ investment products sold cheaply to help people begin to invest, this is a good thing. The Nutmeg model is all wrong however and doomed to failure.
I get the impression rightly or wrongly that some of the issue with ROBOs is they're sold as a "lifestyle" product.
Apps for 24/7 access and people with £2K invested who can claim they use a "wealth manager" and that kind of thing just doesn't seem too sensible.
I know Vanguard aren't the answer to every question but you do wonder for most people for 22 bps what it is that they won't let them do.
Apps for 24/7 access and people with £2K invested who can claim they use a "wealth manager" and that kind of thing just doesn't seem too sensible.
I know Vanguard aren't the answer to every question but you do wonder for most people for 22 bps what it is that they won't let them do.
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hstewie said:
hstewie said: I get the impression rightly or wrongly that some of the issue with ROBOs is they're sold as a "lifestyle" product.
Apps for 24/7 access and people with £2K invested who can claim they use a "wealth manager" and that kind of thing just doesn't seem too sensible.
I know Vanguard aren't the answer to every question but you do wonder for most people for 22 bps what it is that they won't let them do.
I think it’s all about how you sell it to a particular end of the market. It’s not exactly sexy, you’re not going to look very cool in front a group of blokes wearing their grandpa’s trousers and a facial growth resembling their grandma’s bush, all sipping £200 cups of coffee extracted from a Civet’s anus showing them your crappy Vanguard product. Apps for 24/7 access and people with £2K invested who can claim they use a "wealth manager" and that kind of thing just doesn't seem too sensible.
I know Vanguard aren't the answer to every question but you do wonder for most people for 22 bps what it is that they won't let them do.
At one end people need to pay money they don’t really have to feel richer than they are. At the other end people need to have trendy apps using made up words to feel cooler than they really are.
In the middle is s
tty old Vanguard, boring old IFAs and their wk spreadsheets and common sense and a whole bunch of investors who don’t put much real value in either looking cooler or richer than they actually are. Normalmis s
t. 
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: I get the impression rightly or wrongly that some of the issue with ROBOs is they're sold as a "lifestyle" product.
Apps for 24/7 access and people with £2K invested who can claim they use a "wealth manager" and that kind of thing just doesn't seem too sensible.
I know Vanguard aren't the answer to every question but you do wonder for most people for 22 bps what it is that they won't let them do.
I've posted this before, but it's important to realise that traditional investment management offerings are marketing businesses - selling something they realistically can't deliver on, namely market outperformance.Apps for 24/7 access and people with £2K invested who can claim they use a "wealth manager" and that kind of thing just doesn't seem too sensible.
I know Vanguard aren't the answer to every question but you do wonder for most people for 22 bps what it is that they won't let them do.
https://www.mavenadviser.com/podcast5/investment-m...
Combine that with a large percentage of investors not wanting "average" returns and you can see why boring, low-cost, globally diversified solutions are the exception, rather than the norm, despite all the evidence.
DonkeyApple said:
Like many ‘Fintechs’ their actual existence in central London is part of the farce.
The primary function and core capability of most fintechs is raising venture capital money at ever increasing valuations every 18 months. They also darken our door from time to time.In that context, it makes perfect sense to be as near as possible to your Mayfair customer base.
NickCQ said:
DonkeyApple said:
Like many ‘Fintechs’ their actual existence in central London is part of the farce.
The primary function and core capability of most fintechs is raising venture capital money at ever increasing valuations every 18 months. They also darken our door from time to time.In that context, it makes perfect sense to be as near as possible to your Mayfair customer base.
Four years it dawned on me that I didn’t need to be in central London any more and I’m now out in the middle of the countryside running an online brokerage and I’ve also recently picked up a deal to raise 50m for a start-up. For me the very essence of fintech is that it has no need to be in the middle of a city.
Nutmeg has no need to waste money on City rents and City wages. It doesn’t even need to be near the Exchange. It’s tech is very simple so is its investment, there’s just no argument that it needs to be in the City to attract prime labour. And it is those costs which are crippling it. I guess, is it even fintech? It’s just an old fashioned AM with bloated costs that uses an app to attract small clients.
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