European Union - Ramifications

[CS Garth]

grumbledoak said:

The result was only announced on Friday. Then Spineless Quitter's resignation. It is now Sunday morning! Of course no-one has done or said anything. They haven't had time to.

This has been in the pipeline for months. It was obvious to all that Cameron would resign if we lost although it seemed unlikely.

It kind of feels like the Brexiteers didn't have a plan doesn't it? It has been said all along that the Brexiteers didn't have an understanding of what life outside of the EU looked like. They have fallen at hurdle number 1, which of their esteemed number will lead us there

Parliament should just reject the result on the basis that the campaign was riddled with inaccuracies on both sides and thus the electorate didn't know what they were voting for. Most outers were voting to say I don't like the way migration has gone or us sending money to Europe. These issues can be addressed without pulling out

[anonymous-user]

CS Garth said:

This has been in the pipeline for months. It was obvious to all that Cameron would resign if we lost although it seemed unlikely.

It kind of feels like the Brexiteers didn't have a plan doesn't it? It has been said all along that the Brexiteers didn't have an understanding of what life outside of the EU looked like. They have fallen at hurdle number 1, which of their esteemed number will lead us there

Parliament should just reject the result on the basis that the campaign was riddled with inaccuracies on both sides and thus the electorate didn't know what they were voting for. Most outers were voting to say I don't like the way migration has gone or us sending money to Europe. These issues can be addressed without pulling out

Absolute tosh! How can those issues be addressed when they are fundamental to EU membership?

At no point do I remember the European Parliament offering to reform in advance of Thirsday's decision.

[CS Garth]

wormus said:

CS Garth said:

This has been in the pipeline for months. It was obvious to all that Cameron would resign if we lost although it seemed unlikely.

It kind of feels like the Brexiteers didn't have a plan doesn't it? It has been said all along that the Brexiteers didn't have an understanding of what life outside of the EU looked like. They have fallen at hurdle number 1, which of their esteemed number will lead us there

Parliament should just reject the result on the basis that the campaign was riddled with inaccuracies on both sides and thus the electorate didn't know what they were voting for. Most outers were voting to say I don't like the way migration has gone or us sending money to Europe. These issues can be addressed without pulling out

Absolute tosh! How can those issues be addressed when they are fundamental to EU membership?

At no point do I remember the European Parliament offering to reform in advance of Thirsday's decision.

I suspect some of the fundamentals are about to change lest we witness the break up.

[Simpo Two]

The possibility that we don't leave the EU after all is growing bigger. Perhaps the referendum will be brushed over as just a little protest vote by Little Englanders who were 'a bit peeved but actually wrong'.

Of course the quote was from the Grauniad, who are rabid EU fans. Instead of saying:

'All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality'

- which is what they want, they could have said:

'All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and trigger Article 50'.

Edited by Simpo Two on Sunday 26th June 09:57

[CS Garth]

If it wasn't so tragic it might be amusing that none of the Brexiteers may wish to pull the trigger on the thing they have been passionately arguing in favour of for months

[DonkeyApple]

Simpo Two said:

I know this seems amazing but you could travel perfectly well to any European country before the EU was invented. You just needed a passport. And you still do! Just because we've voted to leave doesn't mean they'll build an Iron Curtain. The EU is not North Korea.

I was reading the views of many country and political leaders in Europe and the rest of the world (because there is a rest of the world) and with one or two exceptions they were positive about maintaining links with the UK.

Edited by Simpo Two on Saturday 25th June 20:41

This is another baffling element of this event, the stunning ignorance of so many under 30 who seem to think that prior to 1993 no foreigners were allowed into the UK and no Brits could leave. Do they not talk to their parents or anyone older than them? It has been most weird to hear the voices of so many cripplingly ignorant and hysterical 20 somethings. But that is probably just a function of social media and its ability to give fools a voice that drowns out the normal people.

[anonymous-user]

DonkeyApple said:

This is another baffling element of this event, the stunning ignorance of so many under 30 who seem to think that prior to 1993 no foreigners were allowed into the UK and no Brits could leave. Do they not talk to their parents or anyone older than them? It has been most weird to hear the voices of so many cripplingly ignorant and hysterical 20 somethings. But that is probably just a function of social media and its ability to give fools a voice that drowns out the normal people.

Well said. Also, having listened to the political commentary, there's no doubt about us leaving. Sooner people accept that and look to the future, the better off will all be. EU members are already talking about their willingness to discuss trade because when it comes down to it, money talks.

[DonkeyApple]

CS Garth said:

Parliament should just reject the result on the basis that the campaign was riddled with inaccuracies on both sides and thus the electorate didn't know what they were voting for. Most outers were voting to say I don't like the way migration has gone or us sending money to Europe. These issues can be addressed without pulling out

Unfortunately, those issues could not ever be redressed without the referendum result to leave.

And the result was a democratic one. People may be disheartened that some angry, white, old, easy life, I'll educated cretin voted to Leave but for every one of them on the Leave side there was one on the Remain, a semi functioning, debt riddled moron who had no idea what they were really voting for.

There seems to be a belief that everyone who voted Remain was some kind of educated, superior intellect. This absolutely obviously was not the case and it is very silly for people to try and think so.

Yes, I think many people voted because they were sick to death of the riding roughshod of the political elite but that still makes it a very valid vote. Greece ignored their people, most governments in the EU are trying to silence their people and using lies and threats to do so, our previous government ignored numerous peoples' protests on inportant matters to the point that Britons had lost faith in the concept of voting.

Do you honestly think it is at all morally acceptable to now ignore the free rights of the British people when they have spoken? Seriously? It would be unacceptable. What's done is done. We will set an example to the other Governments of the EU that you do not ignore the people who elect you and we must all pull together to now make this work.

If the fun and games of the build up to the new PM and the exercising of article 50 leads to a proper agreement from the EU to halt key practices such as unskilled migration, EU states billing the place of nationality for associated benefits and costs, the end to confrontational expansionism and an end to the absolutely insane concept of a European Army then let it go to the people for a new vote but otherwise the people have spoken.

[DonkeyApple]

CS Garth said:

If it wasn't so tragic it might be amusing that none of the Brexiteers may wish to pull the trigger on the thing they have been passionately arguing in favour of for months

Can anyone invoke Article 50 then? Can Gladys from Merthyr Tydfil just ping an email to Junker?

Cameron said he would do it on the morning of the 24th but that has transpired to be another of his lies and acts of cowardice, just as his 'renegotiations', manifesto promises to make key changes to immigration and almost certainly his promises during the referendum to carry out promises from his manifesto that he had instantly ignored the moment he was elected.

The only reason Article 50 hasn't been enacted yet is because the only chappie who can do so hasn't the backbone to do so.?

[Simpo Two]

DonkeyApple said:

This is another baffling element of this event, the stunning ignorance of so many under 30 who seem to think that prior to 1993 no foreigners were allowed into the UK and no Brits could leave. Do they not talk to their parents or anyone older than them? It has been most weird to hear the voices of so many cripplingly ignorant and hysterical 20 somethings. But that is probably just a function of social media and its ability to give fools a voice that drowns out the normal people.

It's not just the young. I had the misfortune to re-follow someone after the referendum - because I knew that before it their FB feed would be full of pro-EU soundbytes and videos - and found them all campaigning for another referendum because they felt they had been told lies by the politicians (!). I dipped my toe in the water, pointing out that I didn't demand another general election every time Blair got in, only to learn that they (middle aged Guardian reading 'intellectuals') think that the National Front will take over and throw them out and the sky will fall in. I was told to learn about social history of the 20s and 30s and the rise of right wing hate and intolerance. They are all 'scared' and 'terrified'. I got in a couple of rational counterpunches including the Versailles Treaty, then with possible odds of 50:1, bugged out and unfollowed.

[Fezzaman]

DonkeyApple said:

CS Garth said:

Parliament should just reject the result on the basis that the campaign was riddled with inaccuracies on both sides and thus the electorate didn't know what they were voting for. Most outers were voting to say I don't like the way migration has gone or us sending money to Europe. These issues can be addressed without pulling out

Unfortunately, those issues could not ever be redressed without the referendum result to leave.

The answer to the question are we better off in or out of the EU and the reaction since

[Sump]

People should have to take some standardised basic test about the subject they are voting for before being allowed to vote. If they fail they shouldn't be allowed to vote. If you know nothing about the subject then your opinion should not matter.

[Ozzie Osmond]

It will be interesting to see if there's a General Election in the near future.

Most particularly it will be interesting if one party campaigns on "We will implement the referendum" and the other campaigns on "We will not implement the referendum".

I suspect this is one of the fundamental reasons why Labour want Corbyn out, and fast.

[feef]

Sump said:

People should have to take some standardised basic test about the subject they are voting for before being allowed to vote. If they fail they shouldn't be allowed to vote. If you know nothing about the subject then your opinion should not matter.

While part of me agrees with you, another part recognises that in a democracy, if the electorate chooses to be governed based on misinformation, gut feelings, media hype and lies then it's up to them, and in a democracy, we need to abide by the outcome

The alternative is to end up with a distinct class split, a 'ruling class' who can vote and those who can't

I really can't see that sort of split in society being healthy for any country

[mph1977]

Sump said:

People should have to take some standardised basic test about the subject they are voting for before being allowed to vote. If they fail they shouldn't be allowed to vote. If you know nothing about the subject then your opinion should not matter.

while rather draconian and some would suggest near Eugenic in nature , the level of 'wker's remorse' shown by people who stated they voted to leave does draw into question their competence to make that decision and in some cases their Mental Capacity in general ... (Un)fortunately the law presumes capacity .

[ou sont les biscuits]

DonkeyApple said:

Can anyone invoke Article 50 then? Can Gladys from Merthyr Tydfil just ping an email to Junker?

Cameron said he would do it on the morning of the 24th but that has transpired to be another of his lies and acts of cowardice, just as his 'renegotiations', manifesto promises to make key changes to immigration and almost certainly his promises during the referendum to carry out promises from his manifesto that he had instantly ignored the moment he was elected.

The only reason Article 50 hasn't been enacted yet is because the only chappie who can do so hasn't the backbone to do so.?

Or maybe he just thinks that he has a duty to all those who live in the UK - including the near enough one half of the elecorate who actually voted to remain - to try and proceed in a way that doesn't trash the economy in some sort of half arsed attempt to exit quickly.

As has become painfully obvious, there was and is no plan for an organised exit. Best to wait and let the dust settle before making any more irreversible decisions.

[pushthebutton]

CS Garth said:

It's s shame it has to be this way and I resent being made to do this by a majority topped up to over 50 percent by protest voters who never thought this would happen...

Who? Exactly how many? Where are the results of the poll that showed this to be the case?

Voters on both sides were fed misinformation and half-truths in an effort to get them to vote a certain way. There were very few indisputable facts throughout the whole campaign. I don't think you can just repeat the statements above without showing where they come from and posting verifiable sources to back them up; otherwise they're just another source of half-truth or misinformation. I hope you can show that I'm wrong and provide proof for that statement.

After a little while it appeared, to me, that we were voting on concepts and nothing more. Economic and social predictions of the outcome were nothing more than - possibly uneducated - guesswork. I think that continues to be the case post-referendum. I cannot understand anybody who is 100% sure that there's a right way to vote given that almost everything appears to be an unknown IMO.

I've heard that a significant proportion of 'remainers' will now change their vote given that the economic fallout of the referendum hasn't, so far, been anywhere near as extreme as predicted by some. I can't back this up of course, it's just what I've heard, but feel free to re-quote.

Edited by pushthebutton on Sunday 26th June 14:35

[anonymous-user]

The worst part is knowing the people have voted to leave but in reality nothing has happened. Until article 50 has been implemented we are in position of purgatory and unrest which in itself is bad for the economy. I think very quickly people will start to change their view once they realise we are going to be OK after all.

All this talk of London and Cambridge wanting to remain as independent states is ridiculous. Will there be passport control and a fence put up? We need to stop the silly talk and work together to ensure the UK can prosper under the new arrangement.

[Ozzie Osmond]

wormus said:

All this talk of London and Cambridge wanting to remain as independent states is ridiculous. Will there be passport control and a fence put up? We need to stop the silly talk and work together to ensure the UK can prosper under the new arrangement.

What's you proposal for dealing with Ireland? Or do you see that as just silly talk?

And Scotland? How long do you think they're going to stick around? Or is that more silly talk?

I don't think Martin McGuinness and Nicola Sturgeon see it that way.

[audidoody]

Scotland would have to kiss goodbye to £20 billion a year they get from the Treasury under the Barnett Formula. With oil prices in the toilet I doubt they will be voting to lose that any time soon. They'd also have to establish their own central bank to issue Euros.