Using all available road space
Discussion
Here is one for you all,
I train many company car/van drivers in "Eco" driving where I get a driver from a company for only an hour.
I watch them drive for about 4-8 miles (depending on location).....for about 15-20 minutes, normally in a circular route finishing at the place we started from, have a debrief of what i saw, and suggest ways to making them safer, more economical, and then do the same route again with me "coaching" them.
My "average" fuel saving is about 23% as most are not as good as they think.....driving too fast, too close, heavy braking, no forward planning, and poor observation skills etc....
Today whilst on a second lap we approached a roundabout where lane 1 was for left, and lane 2 was marked for turning right.
now I am one for "making progress", as "Eco" driving is not about driving slowly, it is forward planning, using all road space, keeping momentum etc....
So i said to the driver, "There is a large queue in the lane we want to go into, but lane 2 has no cars in it, when it's safe, change lanes, go all the way around the roundabout, and exit the 4th exit, it will mean we over take loads of cars without having to stop/start for a couple of minutes...."
Any way, we did, and I counted 14 cars that we overtook on the approach to the roundabout, went around, exited, and continued on our way.
The bloke I did this with was not impressed, he thought it was "cheating".
I tried to reason with him that I was using local knowledge, we did nothing illegal ....as we did go "to the right" and saved ourselves maybe 1-2 minutes, therefore quicker journey, and less fuel used.
He really did not like it, and said he would never consider doing it
We did nothing aggressive, we used available road space, saved time, did a higher average speed, and made about 14% fuel saving over his first loop with the other pointers I gave him following his "way" .
Why is it that when folk are given "suggestions" as to how to improve their skills, observational awareness, made aware of the risks they they are taking in following distances, clearance to obstructions etc..... that they don't want to try and change. This driver was very happy to drive about a second from the vehicle in front at 60+ mph on a motorway in heavy rain/spray, yet not make safe progress in heavy traffic?
I train many company car/van drivers in "Eco" driving where I get a driver from a company for only an hour.
I watch them drive for about 4-8 miles (depending on location).....for about 15-20 minutes, normally in a circular route finishing at the place we started from, have a debrief of what i saw, and suggest ways to making them safer, more economical, and then do the same route again with me "coaching" them.
My "average" fuel saving is about 23% as most are not as good as they think.....driving too fast, too close, heavy braking, no forward planning, and poor observation skills etc....
Today whilst on a second lap we approached a roundabout where lane 1 was for left, and lane 2 was marked for turning right.
now I am one for "making progress", as "Eco" driving is not about driving slowly, it is forward planning, using all road space, keeping momentum etc....
So i said to the driver, "There is a large queue in the lane we want to go into, but lane 2 has no cars in it, when it's safe, change lanes, go all the way around the roundabout, and exit the 4th exit, it will mean we over take loads of cars without having to stop/start for a couple of minutes...."
Any way, we did, and I counted 14 cars that we overtook on the approach to the roundabout, went around, exited, and continued on our way.
The bloke I did this with was not impressed, he thought it was "cheating".
I tried to reason with him that I was using local knowledge, we did nothing illegal ....as we did go "to the right" and saved ourselves maybe 1-2 minutes, therefore quicker journey, and less fuel used.
He really did not like it, and said he would never consider doing it
We did nothing aggressive, we used available road space, saved time, did a higher average speed, and made about 14% fuel saving over his first loop with the other pointers I gave him following his "way" .
Why is it that when folk are given "suggestions" as to how to improve their skills, observational awareness, made aware of the risks they they are taking in following distances, clearance to obstructions etc..... that they don't want to try and change. This driver was very happy to drive about a second from the vehicle in front at 60+ mph on a motorway in heavy rain/spray, yet not make safe progress in heavy traffic?
spookly said:
As for eco driving.... get a more efficient car. Life's too short.
I'd use the same logic to say drive a car you want to drive rather than always being stuck in an eco box, but to each their own. (Personally I loop around roundabouts to beat the traffic a few times a week generally, I'm glad others don't as it means I can get through more quickly). watchnut said:
Why is it that when folk are given "suggestions" as to how to improve their skills, observational awareness, made aware of the risks they they are taking in following distances, clearance to obstructions etc..... that they don't want to try and change. This driver was very happy to drive about a second from the vehicle in front at 60+ mph on a motorway in heavy rain/spray, yet not make safe progress in heavy traffic?
Because they don't share your beliefs & therefore what an 'improvement' is.They will only change where they see it as an improvement because it matches with their belief system.
watchnut - sorry but i fundamentally disagree with your career choice.
Drive so nobody is pissed off & nobody gets hurt. end of.
Petrol (or diesel) is just collateral damage - If you don't believe me check a graph of world oil consumption the UK is so minor its not on it
I could have save HMSO millions in printing the highway code :-)
Drive so nobody is pissed off & nobody gets hurt. end of.
Petrol (or diesel) is just collateral damage - If you don't believe me check a graph of world oil consumption the UK is so minor its not on it
I could have save HMSO millions in printing the highway code :-)
Thats fine. Go for it. You overtook 14 cars on the approach. How many cars pulled away whilst you were doing your 360 degree plus?
Its fine and has zero effect on any other road user.
And I bet no one was pissed off because in a non descript vehicle no one would notice. Do the same in a 'shouty' car and you may piss a few people off but so what - if they thought about doing it there might be less congestion. So many drivers waste time and miss gaps at round about I actually think you are doing other road users a favour!
Its fine and has zero effect on any other road user.
And I bet no one was pissed off because in a non descript vehicle no one would notice. Do the same in a 'shouty' car and you may piss a few people off but so what - if they thought about doing it there might be less congestion. So many drivers waste time and miss gaps at round about I actually think you are doing other road users a favour!
This was discussed at length on the old ADUK forum with similar opinions to those already stated.
Personally, I see nothing wrong in this and sometimes do it myself. There are other examples too where local knowledge can play a part, for example, before the A1M was built, there would be a queue northbound at the Norman Cross roundabout at busy times, but you could go through Stilton and join the queue just before the roundabout.
Fuel savings though are minimal, I'd be looking at the time savings
Personally, I see nothing wrong in this and sometimes do it myself. There are other examples too where local knowledge can play a part, for example, before the A1M was built, there would be a queue northbound at the Norman Cross roundabout at busy times, but you could go through Stilton and join the queue just before the roundabout.
Fuel savings though are minimal, I'd be looking at the time savings
I've done it a few times but usually it doesn't work out too well as if the traffic is blocked up on your entrance then you're usually just joining in front of the queue you've overtaken but now stuck blocking them anyway. So you've technically crossed the junction before it's clear. I don't like doing it as really it's no better than queue jumping.
I do do other things to cheat though if I know the area. There's a dual carriageway that splits into 5 lanes at a set of lights over a crossroads The straight and right lanes are controlled by lights whereas the left turn isn't on each of the 4 junctions. I know that if the straight lights are red. I can go left, pull a half U turn round the traffic island and then exit left and pop out back on the straight instead of waiting for the lights to change. Works well late at night as the lights are on a timer so cuts out at least 4 mins of waiting.
I do do other things to cheat though if I know the area. There's a dual carriageway that splits into 5 lanes at a set of lights over a crossroads The straight and right lanes are controlled by lights whereas the left turn isn't on each of the 4 junctions. I know that if the straight lights are red. I can go left, pull a half U turn round the traffic island and then exit left and pop out back on the straight instead of waiting for the lights to change. Works well late at night as the lights are on a timer so cuts out at least 4 mins of waiting.
I will admit to having done this, not many times in the past few years mind, I did it on a route from work when still living up North (although I have "done" the same thing, albeit for different reasons, specifically because I overtook a few cars and then was presented with little opportunity to pull back in for the roundabout needing the left hand lane at said roundabout, for safety I just went around not worth peeing people off and cutting them up (which in itself would have been careless).
I have equally seen the same debate elsewhere on doing this, an ex police officer from the point of view it is "careless" because you are being inconsiderate towards other drivers, I sort of see how this would occur, proving it is entirely different matter - for example the reasons above so I doubt it would stick. I suppose that is the legal POV.
Morally and being British it would probably pee people off, as we like queuing...
Having said that based on the above it does depend on the nature of the exit road as well, being clear, in the above up North the left lane always full, right fairly free flowing, exit road was at the time a 70 mph DC so very free flowing.
I have equally seen the same debate elsewhere on doing this, an ex police officer from the point of view it is "careless" because you are being inconsiderate towards other drivers, I sort of see how this would occur, proving it is entirely different matter - for example the reasons above so I doubt it would stick. I suppose that is the legal POV.
Morally and being British it would probably pee people off, as we like queuing...
Having said that based on the above it does depend on the nature of the exit road as well, being clear, in the above up North the left lane always full, right fairly free flowing, exit road was at the time a 70 mph DC so very free flowing.
Edited by Ninja59 on Thursday 30th June 06:27
I do it on occasion when I know I'm going to get a clean break but I wouldn't advocate others doing it nor would I teach it because you're essentially giving someone access to a tool which could put them into contention with other road users down the road. I probably wouldn't do it if I knew I was inevitably going to be stuck in slow traffic with the vehicles I'd just blown past. Not that I see many roads like that up here.
First of all, fair play OP. You've posted the question, and opened up a discussion, potentially exposing yourself to criticism. That's how we all learn. Nothing wrong with that, providing the actual learning bit is implemented at the end of the process.
Generally speaking:
Any behaviour which would have a significant negative impact if everyone chose to do it is, quite simply, anti-social. Deciding that the impact of your actions on everyone else is so small as to be inconsequential is the very definition of selfish behaviour. Most people understand that. If everyone acted the same way for their own gain, then the impact would not be small and the system wouldn't operate properly. This is what stops us all from doing these things. It's why we all return our trolleys at the supermarket, except that one moron who thinks it doesn't matter because they're in a hurry and there's an employee to do that anyway. It does matter, because if everyone abandoned their trolleys, the system would break down and every parking space would have an abandoned trolley in it. Don't be a trolley-abandoner.
About this specific roundabout thing:
As an advanced driver, you must have been taught to consider, at all times, how your actions affect other road users. Being anti-social towards other drivers can have consequences. I wouldn't be happy with myself if somebody shook their head and tutted at my driving, let alone the possibility of angering somebody with anti-social behaviour. Angry or even just distracted drivers can be dangerous to you, themselves and others. Are you happy with the possibility of causing anger in other road users? Are you happy to call what you are doing an advanced technique in that context?
I would argue that not being anti-social trumps "making progress". Consider both, and the consequences of both (potential road-rage incident caused by you, vs. a few minutes saved) and I think you could argue that sitting in the queue is the more advanced technique. In fact, not could argue. I WILL argue. I hereby state, that in my opinion, for the situation you describe, sitting in the queue is more situationally-aware and advanced technique than using your way to circumvent it.
I would personally say I'd wish you to stop teaching this. I won't argue that there is no circumstance ever ever ever where "making progress" like this at the expense of others should ever be considered. I don't like absolutes. There aren't any in the real world. However, I'd say add the impact on other road users into your assessment, and see if you draw the same conclusions next time the situation arises.
Generally speaking:
Any behaviour which would have a significant negative impact if everyone chose to do it is, quite simply, anti-social. Deciding that the impact of your actions on everyone else is so small as to be inconsequential is the very definition of selfish behaviour. Most people understand that. If everyone acted the same way for their own gain, then the impact would not be small and the system wouldn't operate properly. This is what stops us all from doing these things. It's why we all return our trolleys at the supermarket, except that one moron who thinks it doesn't matter because they're in a hurry and there's an employee to do that anyway. It does matter, because if everyone abandoned their trolleys, the system would break down and every parking space would have an abandoned trolley in it. Don't be a trolley-abandoner.
About this specific roundabout thing:
As an advanced driver, you must have been taught to consider, at all times, how your actions affect other road users. Being anti-social towards other drivers can have consequences. I wouldn't be happy with myself if somebody shook their head and tutted at my driving, let alone the possibility of angering somebody with anti-social behaviour. Angry or even just distracted drivers can be dangerous to you, themselves and others. Are you happy with the possibility of causing anger in other road users? Are you happy to call what you are doing an advanced technique in that context?
I would argue that not being anti-social trumps "making progress". Consider both, and the consequences of both (potential road-rage incident caused by you, vs. a few minutes saved) and I think you could argue that sitting in the queue is the more advanced technique. In fact, not could argue. I WILL argue. I hereby state, that in my opinion, for the situation you describe, sitting in the queue is more situationally-aware and advanced technique than using your way to circumvent it.
I would personally say I'd wish you to stop teaching this. I won't argue that there is no circumstance ever ever ever where "making progress" like this at the expense of others should ever be considered. I don't like absolutes. There aren't any in the real world. However, I'd say add the impact on other road users into your assessment, and see if you draw the same conclusions next time the situation arises.
Fair points all round really.
In a liveried up vehicle on a small roundabout where everyone can see what your up to it could raise a quizzical eyebrow or two if other road users were actually awake to what was going on. (Or road rage to one or two of you!) lol
I would never do it where trying to come off the roundabout could cause blockage and confrontation with other road users, or if everyone was doing it then the situation is no better, and definitely leads to confrontation.
part of the op was to gauge the views of other "forward" thinking people. But, what puzzled me about this chap was that he was happy to belt along in very wet conditions less than a second from the vehicle in front, and intimidate the car in front when queuing by being that close i could see the pimples on the neck of the driver in front! but believed in queuing!
To further enrage one or two of you there is a slip road/exit I use on a regular basis on the M27 where lanes 1,2,and 3 are near on stationary at times, the slip road is near on a mile long, I enter it, go down to the roundabout, and go around it rejoining the motorway, I must easily save about 4-5 minutes every time, never once seen another car do the same thing, or been followed by anyone doing it. If we all did it, it would not be worth it, but for some of us thinking ahead, we are making progress.
At other times when motorway has heavy traffic you get the 70-90 mph brigade accelerating and braking hard in lanes 2 and 3, and I find just sitting in lane 1 by the time I get from Portsmouth back to Southampton the same cars have over taken me about 2 to 3 times, yet we get to the same place about the same time....me not stressed....just entertained, vehicle with less wear and tear, so I don't bomb it everywhere cutting people up, barging in, I just drive to what the conditions allow, the knowledge I have of the area, and what other road users are doing.
I am always open to suggestions and comments from others, and learn useful "stuff" from this area of the forum. Ta
In a liveried up vehicle on a small roundabout where everyone can see what your up to it could raise a quizzical eyebrow or two if other road users were actually awake to what was going on. (Or road rage to one or two of you!) lol
I would never do it where trying to come off the roundabout could cause blockage and confrontation with other road users, or if everyone was doing it then the situation is no better, and definitely leads to confrontation.
part of the op was to gauge the views of other "forward" thinking people. But, what puzzled me about this chap was that he was happy to belt along in very wet conditions less than a second from the vehicle in front, and intimidate the car in front when queuing by being that close i could see the pimples on the neck of the driver in front! but believed in queuing!
To further enrage one or two of you there is a slip road/exit I use on a regular basis on the M27 where lanes 1,2,and 3 are near on stationary at times, the slip road is near on a mile long, I enter it, go down to the roundabout, and go around it rejoining the motorway, I must easily save about 4-5 minutes every time, never once seen another car do the same thing, or been followed by anyone doing it. If we all did it, it would not be worth it, but for some of us thinking ahead, we are making progress.
At other times when motorway has heavy traffic you get the 70-90 mph brigade accelerating and braking hard in lanes 2 and 3, and I find just sitting in lane 1 by the time I get from Portsmouth back to Southampton the same cars have over taken me about 2 to 3 times, yet we get to the same place about the same time....me not stressed....just entertained, vehicle with less wear and tear, so I don't bomb it everywhere cutting people up, barging in, I just drive to what the conditions allow, the knowledge I have of the area, and what other road users are doing.
I am always open to suggestions and comments from others, and learn useful "stuff" from this area of the forum. Ta
watchnut said:
what puzzled me about this chap was that he was happy to belt along in very wet conditions less than a second from the vehicle in front, and intimidate the car in front
EST must be paying well these days if you are prepared to put your life on the line with this guy. Nip this in the bud straight off, discuss later would be my suggestion.Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff