Discussion
avinalarf said:
Re bitcoins ,which to me are unfathomable hocus pocus.
I read that there's been some fraudulent activity that's resulted in a 36% loss of value.
What's that all about ?
Bitfinex, a Bitcoin exchange got hacked and lost circa $60m with coins from participants accounts. Upto the hack it was the largest exchange as it allowed for margin trading (lending funds).I read that there's been some fraudulent activity that's resulted in a 36% loss of value.
What's that all about ?
The exchange decided to mutualise the loss ("bail-in") across all participants / wallets each loosing 36% of their value. They have issued a Digital Asset; that at somepoint in the future "may" be exchangeable for shares in the HKG parent OR BitCoins (assuming exchange returns to profit). It all seems a bit up in the air.... Bitfinex were well know for having iffy security protocols so there is fair chunk of negative press re those maintaining accounts / wallets there.
As for investing in BitCoins themselves; well depends on if you are looking at speculative trading or value in Distributed Ledger Tech - DLT (the 2 are not the same). Each DLT needs a native coin; so there have been a number of different Coins spring up (and fail).
I value & believe in the benefits of DLT; but don't take the coins that seriously. I do punt Ether (native coin on Ethereum which I like given Smart contract capability) - BUT its a punt. Originally I looked at negative news correlations to Bitcoin; but that's not always the case (DAO a prime example of the issues - but bought in more of the back of that). Its more a bit of fun, so prepared to loose my stake - but I'm up about 4k this year (TBH I'm 50/50 on cashing out for a weekend in Vegas or letting it run). I'll be looking at what R3 consortium come up with in the coming months.
Note... this is very brief summary of the issues (not a forensic deep dive into cryptocurrency trading)
Edited by stongle on Wednesday 10th August 12:07
Edited by stongle on Wednesday 10th August 12:08
freshkid said:
But if you enjoy it more than going to a casino...and you learn something at the same time...what does it matter?
I don't go to the Casino,in fact I don't bet on anything.Good luck to those that do but it's not something I really have a feel for.
My main interest is my business,which I enjoy,and taking a few holidays with the wife now and then.
A bit predictable,I know ,but that's me.
walm said:
If you exclude MtGox which was of course the largest until it turned into a fraud.
Bitcoin? Seems legit.
MtGox was suspended in 2014, c'mon lets not split hairs. in $ terms Bitfinex was the biggest pre hack.Bitcoin? Seems legit.
Edited by walm on Wednesday 10th August 13:26
As for the coins, I think I was pretty clear differentiating speculative magic beans punting and the value in DLT. The problem DLT faces is finding a proper "use" case in the next x years.
stongle said:
Bitfinex, a Bitcoin exchange got hacked and lost circa $60m with coins from participants accounts. Upto the hack it was the largest exchange as it allowed for margin trading (lending funds).
The exchange decided to mutualise the loss ("bail-in") across all participants / wallets each loosing 36% of their value. They have issued a Digital Asset; that at somepoint in the future "may" be exchangeable for shares in the HKG parent OR BitCoins (assuming exchange returns to profit). It all seems a bit up in the air.... Bitfinex were well know for having iffy security protocols so there is fair chunk of negative press re those maintaining accounts / wallets there.
As for investing in BitCoins themselves; well depends on if you are looking at speculative trading or value in Distributed Ledger Tech - DLT (the 2 are not the same). Each DLT needs a native coin; so there have been a number of different Coins spring up (and fail).
I value & believe in the benefits of DLT; but don't take the coins that seriously. I do punt Ether (native coin on Ethereum which I like given Smart contract capability) - BUT its a punt. Originally I looked at negative news correlations to Bitcoin; but that's not always the case (DAO a prime example of the issues - but bnnn.ought in more of the back of that). Its more a bit of fun, so prepared to loose my stake - but I'm up about 4k this year (TBH I'm 50/50 on cashing out for a weekend in Vegas or letting it run). I'll be looking at what R3 consortium come up with in the coming months.
Note... this is very brief summary of the issues (not a forensic deep dive into cryptocurrency trading)
Overtime I've read about bitcoins and how you mine for them,can you explain in simple language the process.The exchange decided to mutualise the loss ("bail-in") across all participants / wallets each loosing 36% of their value. They have issued a Digital Asset; that at somepoint in the future "may" be exchangeable for shares in the HKG parent OR BitCoins (assuming exchange returns to profit). It all seems a bit up in the air.... Bitfinex were well know for having iffy security protocols so there is fair chunk of negative press re those maintaining accounts / wallets there.
As for investing in BitCoins themselves; well depends on if you are looking at speculative trading or value in Distributed Ledger Tech - DLT (the 2 are not the same). Each DLT needs a native coin; so there have been a number of different Coins spring up (and fail).
I value & believe in the benefits of DLT; but don't take the coins that seriously. I do punt Ether (native coin on Ethereum which I like given Smart contract capability) - BUT its a punt. Originally I looked at negative news correlations to Bitcoin; but that's not always the case (DAO a prime example of the issues - but bnnn.ought in more of the back of that). Its more a bit of fun, so prepared to loose my stake - but I'm up about 4k this year (TBH I'm 50/50 on cashing out for a weekend in Vegas or letting it run). I'll be looking at what R3 consortium come up with in the coming months.
Note... this is very brief summary of the issues (not a forensic deep dive into cryptocurrency trading)
Edited by stongle on Wednesday 10th August 12:07
Edited by stongle on Wednesday 10th August 12:08
Also I don't understand how they are valued.
Our common international currencies the £ or $ or $, whatever,they are relatively stable in value and fluctuate but only relatively moderately,but the Bitcoin can swing wildly in its value.
Also can you go to a bank and exchange them for currency and how might a bank value them ?
Is it the same as any other commodity in that they are only worth what another person will pay for them ?
What function do Bitcoin perform that normal currency cannot.
And why are Bitcoin popular with the criminal fraternity ?
How do you know it's not a big scam ?
avinalarf said:
Breaking it down,whilst attempting not to oversimplify,it is apparent that the skills required for investing are often quite different than day trader.
Agree totally different ball game. It's one thing knowing what to look for in a setup and another to then manage that trade. I think it was contango who alluded to it earlier there's also the emotional aspect you need to consider. You can give two traders the same buy signal in a stock and the outcome could be vastly different, just for example one may end up making a 2k profit and the other shaken out at the first sign of a loss even though the trade is the same.
Oh Walm check out the "turtle traders" novices can be taught to trade, although agree the stats show it's a losers game.
Edited by twinturboz on Wednesday 10th August 16:41
twinturboz said:
avinalarf said:
Breaking it down,whilst attempting not to oversimplify,it is apparent that the skills required for investing are often quite different than day trader.
Agree totally different ball game. It's one thing knowing what to look for in a setup and another to then manage that trade. I think it was contango who alluded to it earlier there's also the emotional aspect you need to consider. You can give two traders the same buy signal in a stock and the outcome could be vastly different, just for example one may end up making a 2k profit and the other shaken out at the first sign of a loss even though the trade is the same.
In the example you gave are you suggesting that one trader might always sell when the share loses say 5% ,whilst another just sits there hoping for a rebound ?
Or is it that the other trader has say a 10% loss threshold ?
avinalarf said:
Overtime I've read about bitcoins and how you mine for them,can you explain in simple language the process.
Also I don't understand how they are valued.
Our common international currencies the £ or $ or $, whatever,they are relatively stable in value and fluctuate but only relatively moderately,but the Bitcoin can swing wildly in its value.
Also can you go to a bank and exchange them for currency and how might a bank value them ?
Is it the same as any other commodity in that they are only worth what another person will pay for them ?
What function do Bitcoin perform that normal currency cannot.
And why are Bitcoin popular with the criminal fraternity ?
How do you know it's not a big scam ?
I’m not evangelical about them, they are tainted. If you want to read more, Coindesk (www.coindesk.com), has a lot of information on Bitcoin and such. Also I don't understand how they are valued.
Our common international currencies the £ or $ or $, whatever,they are relatively stable in value and fluctuate but only relatively moderately,but the Bitcoin can swing wildly in its value.
Also can you go to a bank and exchange them for currency and how might a bank value them ?
Is it the same as any other commodity in that they are only worth what another person will pay for them ?
What function do Bitcoin perform that normal currency cannot.
And why are Bitcoin popular with the criminal fraternity ?
How do you know it's not a big scam ?
They are very volatile: http://www.coindesk.com/price/#2010-07-18,2016-08-...
Originally I bought into Ether as a prop punt - taking a long position when someone explained the concepts of Smart Contracts in January. Latency is a problem; but there are a lot of (future) applications (oddly I see private blockchains having early value over public – totally against the anarcho-libertarian origins).
As I’ve said, application of the Distributed Ledger Technology / rail (and normally each DLT requires its own native coin) is more interesting to me than the coins gaining equivalence to a Fiat ccy (BoE produced some interesting literature on this). I was a Finance Trader for a GSIB, but now work on Financial product engineering (fancy name for regulatory arbitrage); so it’s all kinda interesting (although I don’t know the coding side of it). There have been a lot of interesting research on Blockchain impact to Banks (Credit Suisse wrote a paper recently). Worth hunting down.
stongle said:
I’m not evangelical about them, they are tainted. If you want to read more, Coindesk (www.coindesk.com), has a lot of information on Bitcoin and such.
They are very volatile: http://www.coindesk.com/price/#2010-07-18,2016-08-...
Originally I bought into Ether as a prop punt - taking a long position when someone explained the concepts of Smart Contracts in January. Latency is a problem; but there are a lot of (future) applications (oddly I see private blockchains having early value over public – totally against the anarcho-libertarian origins).
As I’ve said, application of the Distributed Ledger Technology / rail (and normally each DLT requires its own native coin) is more interesting to me than the coins gaining equivalence to a Fiat ccy (BoE produced some interesting literature on this). I was a Finance Trader for a GSIB, but now work on Financial product engineering (fancy name for regulatory arbitrage); so it’s all kinda interesting (although I don’t know the coding side of it). There have been a lot of interesting research on Blockchain impact to Banks (Credit Suisse wrote a paper recently). Worth hunting down.
Thanks,had a look at Coindesk,it'll take me more than a quick look.They are very volatile: http://www.coindesk.com/price/#2010-07-18,2016-08-...
Originally I bought into Ether as a prop punt - taking a long position when someone explained the concepts of Smart Contracts in January. Latency is a problem; but there are a lot of (future) applications (oddly I see private blockchains having early value over public – totally against the anarcho-libertarian origins).
As I’ve said, application of the Distributed Ledger Technology / rail (and normally each DLT requires its own native coin) is more interesting to me than the coins gaining equivalence to a Fiat ccy (BoE produced some interesting literature on this). I was a Finance Trader for a GSIB, but now work on Financial product engineering (fancy name for regulatory arbitrage); so it’s all kinda interesting (although I don’t know the coding side of it). There have been a lot of interesting research on Blockchain impact to Banks (Credit Suisse wrote a paper recently). Worth hunting down.
However I will read up on it.
I would need to sit in a dark room with a spliff to get my head around this subject.
In ten months bitcoins have gone from a low of $393 to a high of $747.
How can one practically use it as a currency ?
I can understand how a drug dealer or Russian Oliagarchs would use it to launder money.
Is that it's " real" purpose / function ,a means of camouflaging wealth illegally gained or undeclared to the authorities ?
I don't see any other legitimate reason to need it,other than that or speculating on its future value.
avinalarf said:
I presume day traders have dealing strategy in their minds,as to the % profit or loss risk,when they buy and sell,would I be right in that ?
In the example you gave are you suggesting that one trader might always sell when the share loses say 5% ,whilst another just sits there hoping for a rebound ?
Or is it that the other trader has say a 10% loss threshold ?
Sure it's all on their individual strategy, appetite for risk etc. One trader may simply, as you said have a different stop loss. In the example you gave are you suggesting that one trader might always sell when the share loses say 5% ,whilst another just sits there hoping for a rebound ?
Or is it that the other trader has say a 10% loss threshold ?
But in the example I was giving even if the parameters where exactly the same, one may choose to exit after seeing the trade go up initially then come back down before it hit the stop loss, the other may stay disciplined and follow the plan exactly. The emotions involved can lead to rash decisions whilst your in that trade.
You can have a well defined plan with exact profit targets and stop losses, following that with extreme discipline is another matter, one that at times goes against human nature, no one wants to take a loss or admit they where wrong hence beginners tend to hold onto losses longer and take profits quickly, whilst it's the exact opposite that you want.
If the best traders in the world get 6/10 trades right, the idea of the game is to make sure those losses are small and the profits on the winning trades far exceed the losses, it's about consistent small profits not chasing the big trade.
I think many new to the markets think it's a get rich quick scheme or it's easy money and either don't put the effort in to research what works or simply give up or run out of funds before they get to a profitable strategy.
twinturboz said:
Sure it's all on their individual strategy, appetite for risk etc. One trader may simply, as you said have a different stop loss.
But in the example I was giving even if the parameters where exactly the same, one may choose to exit after seeing the trade go up initially then come back down before it hit the stop loss, the other may stay disciplined and follow the plan exactly. The emotions involved can lead to rash decisions whilst your in that trade.
You can have a well defined plan with exact profit targets and stop losses, following that with extreme discipline is another matter, one that at times goes against human nature, no one wants to take a loss or admit they where wrong hence beginners tend to hold onto losses longer and take profits quickly, whilst it's the exact opposite that you want.
If the best traders in the world get 6/10 trades right, the idea of the game is to make sure those losses are small and the profits on the winning trades far exceed the losses, it's about consistent small profits not chasing the big trade.
I think many new to the markets think it's a get rich quick scheme or it's easy money and either don't put the effort in to research what works or simply give up or run out of funds before they get to a profitable strategy.
Thanks for that,it's as I surmised.But in the example I was giving even if the parameters where exactly the same, one may choose to exit after seeing the trade go up initially then come back down before it hit the stop loss, the other may stay disciplined and follow the plan exactly. The emotions involved can lead to rash decisions whilst your in that trade.
You can have a well defined plan with exact profit targets and stop losses, following that with extreme discipline is another matter, one that at times goes against human nature, no one wants to take a loss or admit they where wrong hence beginners tend to hold onto losses longer and take profits quickly, whilst it's the exact opposite that you want.
If the best traders in the world get 6/10 trades right, the idea of the game is to make sure those losses are small and the profits on the winning trades far exceed the losses, it's about consistent small profits not chasing the big trade.
I think many new to the markets think it's a get rich quick scheme or it's easy money and either don't put the effort in to research what works or simply give up or run out of funds before they get to a profitable strategy.
So I think that you're saying that in day trading discipline is vital to successful dealing.
It can't be that simple surely.
I presume you pick a share you fancy or maybe any share,it doesn't really matter as long it's volatile,
have a defined strategy of selling if the loss exceeds - 5% loss or selling when the gain reaches + 10% and sticking firmly to that policy.
It's then becomes a game of statistics doesn't it ?
Or am I missing something ?
I take your point about consistent small profits.
So it's more the strategy rather than the performance of a company.
A company can be solid as a rock but if there suddenly develops some volatily you buy and sell.
Surely you have to have an advanced dealing platform to deal that swiftly on quick movements,or is it just better to have automated stop or loss buy and sell criteria .
freshkid said:
But if you enjoy it more than going to a casino...and you learn something at the same time...what does it matter?
The key is to learn from it, hence the need for a measurable strategy that can be reveiwed and updated/optimised.Not just an approach of i think the ftse100 will rise, oh it didnt. Thats just gambling.
Although if that floats your boat then fair enough but a casino is more exciting than an office, IMHO
avinalarf said:
Thanks for that,it's as I surmised.
So I think that you're saying that in day trading discipline is vital to successful dealing.
It can't be that simple surely.
I presume you pick a share you fancy or maybe any share,it doesn't really matter as long it's volatile,
have a defined strategy of selling if the loss exceeds - 5% loss or selling when the gain reaches + 10% and sticking firmly to that policy.
It's then becomes a game of statistics doesn't it ?
Or am I missing something ?
I take your point about consistent small profits.
So it's more the strategy rather than the performance of a company.
A company can be solid as a rock but if there suddenly develops some volatily you buy and sell.
Surely you have to have an advanced dealing platform to deal that swiftly on quick movements,or is it just better to have automated stop or loss buy and sell criteria .
You are sounding worryingly like you really want to get into day trading.So I think that you're saying that in day trading discipline is vital to successful dealing.
It can't be that simple surely.
I presume you pick a share you fancy or maybe any share,it doesn't really matter as long it's volatile,
have a defined strategy of selling if the loss exceeds - 5% loss or selling when the gain reaches + 10% and sticking firmly to that policy.
It's then becomes a game of statistics doesn't it ?
Or am I missing something ?
I take your point about consistent small profits.
So it's more the strategy rather than the performance of a company.
A company can be solid as a rock but if there suddenly develops some volatily you buy and sell.
Surely you have to have an advanced dealing platform to deal that swiftly on quick movements,or is it just better to have automated stop or loss buy and sell criteria .
Don't!
walm said:
avinalarf said:
Thanks for that,it's as I surmised.
So I think that you're saying that in day trading discipline is vital to successful dealing.
It can't be that simple surely.
I presume you pick a share you fancy or maybe any share,it doesn't really matter as long it's volatile,
have a defined strategy of selling if the loss exceeds - 5% loss or selling when the gain reaches + 10% and sticking firmly to that policy.
It's then becomes a game of statistics doesn't it ?
Or am I missing something ?
I take your point about consistent small profits.
So it's more the strategy rather than the performance of a company.
A company can be solid as a rock but if there suddenly develops some volatily you buy and sell.
Surely you have to have an advanced dealing platform to deal that swiftly on quick movements,or is it just better to have automated stop or loss buy and sell criteria .
You are sounding worryingly like you really want to get into day trading.So I think that you're saying that in day trading discipline is vital to successful dealing.
It can't be that simple surely.
I presume you pick a share you fancy or maybe any share,it doesn't really matter as long it's volatile,
have a defined strategy of selling if the loss exceeds - 5% loss or selling when the gain reaches + 10% and sticking firmly to that policy.
It's then becomes a game of statistics doesn't it ?
Or am I missing something ?
I take your point about consistent small profits.
So it's more the strategy rather than the performance of a company.
A company can be solid as a rock but if there suddenly develops some volatily you buy and sell.
Surely you have to have an advanced dealing platform to deal that swiftly on quick movements,or is it just better to have automated stop or loss buy and sell criteria .
Don't!
jonamv8 said:
avinalarf said:
walm said:
You are sounding worryingly like you really want to get into day trading.
Don't!
I'm just enjoying hearing the experiences of others.Don't!
i have decided to play safe and buy some Bitcoins instead.
It is a lovely bridge. Also beans... magic ones.
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