Alternative to BTL. I've had enough

[Darranu]

I'm going down the S21 route so not an issue
Either way I'm very organised with book keeping and paper trail's.

Been here before so not concerned or daunted by the legal aspect

Regards
Darran

[nikaiyo2]

Darranu said:

No, their not that bright and if I'm honest I can't be bothered to converse with them.
Rent review in a weeks time, if the next month's rents late then S21.

Next tenants will be on full managed via agent.

Cheers
D

Can I suggest that this is your problem?

I have found that the lower the apparent IQ of a tenant the more grief they cause, I have always used an agent, but it was those on HB that expected light bulbs changing at 3am.

Sell what you have and buy 2 nicer properties in the best areas that are the most expensive rentals of that type on rightmove, you will not make the same return, but you will have much much less grief and arguably see much better capital appreciation over the longer term.

When a tenants aspiration is to get the council to house them it is only a matter of time before the shenanigans start.

Its the best thing i did, selling my low end BTLS I have less money but much less stress.

[Rangeroverover]

I've always avoided agents as we all know that any repairs incur their cut on top

Nonsense, we manage many properties and just pass on the cost to the landlord.......no markup.

Try student houses, in Exeter, excellent returns, you know in January each year that you will be let for 48 weeks from September, you know you have a 4 week window for any repairs/upgrades every August. We even change the lightbulbs for the tenants.

[AyBee]

Are you not able to respond to said letter with something along the lines of "I pride myself on the condition of my properties and have received no such letters from my tenants - please feel free to pay them a visit"?

I'd probably stick with them to be honest if I were you, possibly getting them fully managed if you feel like passing off the pain?

[Prohibiting]

I bought a BTL 5 years ago and have been through 3 sets of tenants. I've had it managed by an agent from the word Go. The first tenants were a nightmare and didn't pay rent for the first 3 months until they were evicted which the agents sorted. God knows how I'd have managed if I were on my own! That soured my first experience a bit. My 2nd and 3rd set of tenants have been OK.

Last month I instructed the agents to give my tenants the notice and they've now gone. The house is at the lower end of the market and it was near immaculate when I bought it. It's now very tired looking. There is mould in both bedrooms as the tenants never vented the property as they tried to keep as much heat in as they could. The bathroom is grotty and the new standing cooker I bought 4 years ago ideally needs to be changed. Carpets are knackered too. This week I'm having a new bathroom fitted (£4K approx) and a complete refurb of the house. I'm selling it and cashing in in order to take out a larger mortgage to buy a bigger and nicer house with the view to get a "better class of tenant" in it. Plus I should get a better return on the capital gain of a larger property. I hope.

As previously mentioned mentioned by someone else, sell the lower end properties to buy a nicer bigger property?

[Slagathore]

If the house is as you say, the council will come and do an inspection and probably tell you no further action is to be taken. They might pick up on a few things that need doing, but sometimes they will just be recommendations.

They will get stuff like this all the time where tenants try and use them as a bargaining tool to justify not paying rent or try and get money off rent etc. They're normally just as much on your side if the tenants have dicked them around.

Prohibiting said:

I bought a BTL 5 years ago and have been through 3 sets of tenants. I've had it managed by an agent from the word Go. The first tenants were a nightmare and didn't pay rent for the first 3 months until they were evicted which the agents sorted. God knows how I'd have managed if I were on my own! That soured my first experience a bit. My 2nd and 3rd set of tenants have been OK.

Last month I instructed the agents to give my tenants the notice and they've now gone. The house is at the lower end of the market and it was near immaculate when I bought it. It's now very tired looking. There is mould in both bedrooms as the tenants never vented the property as they tried to keep as much heat in as they could. The bathroom is grotty and the new standing cooker I bought 4 years ago ideally needs to be changed. Carpets are knackered too. This week I'm having a new bathroom fitted (£4K approx) and a complete refurb of the house. I'm selling it and cashing in in order to take out a larger mortgage to buy a bigger and nicer house with the view to get a "better class of tenant" in it. Plus I should get a better return on the capital gain of a larger property. I hope.

As previously mentioned mentioned by someone else, sell the lower end properties to buy a nicer bigger property?

Try some HG Mould Spray - spray it on and leave it for about 20 minutes then wipe off. Usually gets rid of most of it.

By upgrading to a bigger, better house, you are still open to exactly the same risk. It doesn't always turn out to be a better class of tenant, and if you end up with a family sized home, then expect even more wear and tear if a couple with kids rent it.

You'll probably have a better pool of tenants to pick from, but I would still expect there to be lots of wear and tear.

[Prohibiting]

I just can't understand how a house can look so tired after just 5 years. Not opening the windows and sleeping in a room with mould multiplying in the corners certainly doesn't appeal to me regardless if it's my house or not! Even the skirting boards are coming away in places (how?) and an old upright (decent) Panasonic vacuum I left there is now scrap. The plastic housing is all cracked and has chunks missing! The handheld hose nozzle has virtually no suction and the bag brimming full. My only conclusion is that it's been lobbed down the stairs a few times. Garden a state and it was a lovely garden when I bought it complete with strawberries. Seriously, what are some people like?

I'm preparing for paint by sanding and sugar soaping each room.

Edited by Prohibiting on Thursday 1st September 15:37

[BoRED S2upid]

nikaiyo2 said:

Can I suggest that this is your problem?

I have found that the lower the apparent IQ of a tenant the more grief they cause, I have always used an agent, but it was those on HB that expected light bulbs changing at 3am.

Sell what you have and buy 2 nicer properties in the best areas that are the most expensive rentals of that type on rightmove, you will not make the same return, but you will have much much less grief and arguably see much better capital appreciation over the longer term.

When a tenants aspiration is to get the council to house them it is only a matter of time before the shenanigans start.

Its the best thing i did, selling my low end BTLS I have less money but much less stress.

This is good advice. The better more desirable the property the better the tenant it attracts add in a decent agent and you shouldn't be bothered and can sit back and relax. The only calls I get are the tenant wants to do x,y and z at their own expense is that ok? They are on 12 month contracts and I expect them to be there for several more years. Ok you don't get as good a return as several smaller cheaper properties but I know which I prefer.

[Slagathore]

Prohibiting said:

I just can't understand how a house can look so tired after just 5 years. Not opening the windows and sleeping in a room with mould multiplying in the corners certainly doesn't appeal to me regardless if it's my house or not! Even the skirting boards are coming away in places (how?) and an old upright (decent) Panasonic vacuum I left there is now scrap. The plastic housing is all cracked and has chunks missing! The handheld hose nozzle has virtually no suction and the bag brimming full. My only conclusion is that it's been lobbed down the stairs a few times. Garden a state and it was a lovely garden when I bought it complete with strawberries. Seriously, what are some people like?

I'm preparing for paint by sanding and sugar soaping each room.

Edited by Prohibiting on Thursday 1st September 15:37

Yeah, the mould is inexcusable, really. The problem is, most people are too stupid to realise it is being caused from moisture in the air. Most just assume it's a problem with the house. The skirting may have been poorly fitted, or I suppose if the moisture levels were that bad, it might cause it to swell up a bit?

Supply as little as possible, as it will get ruined. The wear and tear allowance of 10% for furnished properties is being phased out as well, I think, so there's little benefit to it other than maybe making the house a bit easier to let, but most normal people aren't going to turn a place down because the landlord hasn't supplied a hoover.

Same with the garden, keep it as low maintenance as possible. people talk a good talk when they view the property, trying to make out they are perfect tenants, but the reality is usually a bit different.

It really is like planning for children to be living in the house and then trying to make everything as easy to maintain and replace as possible.

WHat paint have you used for the walls? If it's an emulsion, they are normally not very wipeable, so you might be better off using a silk or eggshell. Will be easier to wipe mess off and keep clean, but obviously won't make much of a difference for scratches and dings. Will make it easier to get the mould off as well in the future.

[jonah35]

Guarantor. Guarantor. Guarantor.

Only let to people who have a guarantor.

Once you do that youll realise you should have done it sooner.

Imagine someone who owns a house (their parent, uncle, boss etc) who has a lot to lose, one call to them and youre sorted.

Always get a guarantor,

[rufusgti]

I really don't believe this line that a more expensive, larger property will give you a tenant that gives you less stress. Rents are high at the moment. Anyone renting a nice property for top money will want a top notch property with no issues, and will be straight on the phone the minute they don't think the huge price they pay is value for money. All properties need maintenance, family homes perhaps needing the most.
Is anyone else reading this thinking 5 years!! You're lucky your not replacing the kitchen.
How long did you expect to go in a rental without needing some redec?
I rented a freshly decorated flat to two girls who seem to be just about as clean and house proud as you could find in a tenant. After 12 months I popped down and re painted a couple of walls for them as they like it to be nice. Will do so again if they want to renew contracts after another 12 months.
Being a landlord can be a pain in the arse. It's not for everyone for sure, but luckily there are plenty of good agents to take the stress from you.

[FocusRS3]

Steelnads said:

I am now 50 and have been a professional property dealer and landlord for 27 years. Over the last few years I have been selling up. It is completely different to even 10 years ago.... much higher risk of non paying tennants and too much choice on my patch. A particular house that I sold recently (first viewing full asking price) would always be let immediately and the tennants would stay 4 or 5 years plus... showed 40 plus people over 8 months and all were unacceptable. The house was immaculate with new carpets etc. In my view you now get crap returns and the good years of BTL are long gone for me.... still got a few left but these will be dumped if I get a wiff of agro from them.

And there talks a man With actual experience and sense .

I have been thinking for a while that the BTL mkt is saturated as I've thought about buying two flats to rent then eventually hand over to my kids .
The more I read about non paying tenants and the competition just to get a property rented out the more i think the bubble has truly burst .

[LFB531]

Blimey, this thread has been rumbling on a while!

Can I just add that not all letting agents add a 'cut' to the price of works. We don't, never have in over 20 years of trading and never will as long as I'm in charge. We get paid to manage, I don't expect to get extra for the job I'm already paid to do.

Plenty of sharpsters out there as in any line of business but don't tar us all with the same brush.

[Revisitph]

greygoose said:

Shell shares yield about that at the moment, whether that can continue with current oil prices is debatable.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-07-28/shell-s-debt-nears-edge-of-comfort-zone-as-rout-boosts-borrowing

Indeed - and even when GG posted Shell, in its drive to maintain dividends, was borrowing huge amounts of money. It hasn't yet reached the crazy situation of rights issues to fund dividends... we'll dilute your holding / capital so that we can pay you a dividend / income but it could.

[Prohibiting]

I replied to this thread in August about doing up my BTL property and to stick it on the market.

Fast forward to now, I've spent £5.5k making it immaculate including a spanking new bathroom and it's been on the market for 4 weeks. Loads of viewings but no offers. Last week I asked the agents to reduce the price as I'm getting twitchy. I want to sell before, in my opinion, price stagnate or even fall. Market is slow.

Edited by Prohibiting on Thursday 3rd November 18:37

[Slagathore]

Demand is/will be there, apparantly - http://news.sky.com/story/uk-faces-18m-shortage-of...

[drainbrain]

LFB531 said:

Blimey, this thread has been rumbling on a while!

Can I just add that not all letting agents add a 'cut' to the price of works. We don't, never have in over 20 years of trading and never will as long as I'm in charge. We get paid to manage, I don't expect to get extra for the job I'm already paid to do.

Plenty of sharpsters out there as in any line of business but don't tar us all with the same brush.

Can I ask, if (god forbid) you're involved in the recovery of a major incident like a burnout, which you probably have been over a 20 year period, do you do all the overseeing, supervision, administration and organisation of the recovery with no admin fee or add on of any kind? Do your clients expect that or even expect that a letting agent is a cash-flow carrying building maintenance firm as well as part of the lettings service?

Edited by drainbrain on Thursday 3rd November 18:41

[LFB531]

drainbrain said:

LFB531 said:

Blimey, this thread has been rumbling on a while!

Can I just add that not all letting agents add a 'cut' to the price of works. We don't, never have in over 20 years of trading and never will as long as I'm in charge. We get paid to manage, I don't expect to get extra for the job I'm already paid to do.

Plenty of sharpsters out there as in any line of business but don't tar us all with the same brush.

Can I ask, if (god forbid) you're involved in the recovery of a major incident like a burnout, which you probably have been over a 20 year period, do you do all the overseeing, supervision, administration and organisation of the recovery with no admin fee or add on of any kind? Do your clients expect that or even expect that a letting agent is a cash-flow carrying building maintenance firm as well as part of the lettings service?

Yes, been there, done that!

Those circumstances do go beyond the scope of 'normal' management duties. Where it's happened, our charges have been agreed in advance with the Client who has then on both occasions recovered them from the insurers.

Same applies to a general refurbishment, all supervision costs agreed in advance. For something as simple as organizing a boiler change or a washing machine repair, why would I charge extra, I'm not the one getting dirty? Seems daft to me and a pretty good way of losing Landlords.

[drainbrain]

LFB531 said:

Yes, been there, done that!

Those circumstances do go beyond the scope of 'normal' management duties. Where it's happened, our charges have been agreed in advance with the Client who has then on both occasions recovered them from the insurers.

Same applies to a general refurbishment, all supervision costs agreed in advance. For something as simple as organizing a boiler change or a washing machine repair, why would I charge extra, I'm not the one getting dirty? Seems daft to me and a pretty good way of losing Landlords.

I took another view. The aim was get a maintenance job done quicker, better and cheaper than any owner could do other than owners who were good tradesmen themselves whose jobs we'd prefer them to do themselves unless they didn't want to. But there was a price to pay us for that service, built into the job's price. And an expansion into doing 'external' work for the general public as well.

I bet your agency grew out of managing your own portfolio. Am I right? (As opposed to a bloke who decided to open a letting agency).

[drainbrain]

FocusRS3 said:

Steelnads said:

I am now 50 and have been a professional property dealer and landlord for 27 years. Over the last few years I have been selling up. It is completely different to even 10 years ago.... much higher risk of non paying tennants and too much choice on my patch. A particular house that I sold recently (first viewing full asking price) would always be let immediately and the tennants would stay 4 or 5 years plus... showed 40 plus people over 8 months and all were unacceptable. The house was immaculate with new carpets etc. In my view you now get crap returns and the good years of BTL are long gone for me.... still got a few left but these will be dumped if I get a wiff of agro from them.

And there talks a man With actual experience and sense .

I have been thinking for a while that the BTL mkt is saturated as I've thought about buying two flats to rent then eventually hand over to my kids .
The more I read about non paying tenants and the competition just to get a property rented out the more i think the bubble has truly burst .

I mean, come on….the btl market will be saturated when there's more supply than demand.

Steelnads has said something confusing. He's a property dealer who's just got a fast turnaround on a sale at full asking. Why get out of the market if you can operate competently in it? Why not just continue a successful process? One of the ways the market hasn't changed is that dealers like a fast turnaround at full asking esp. to the first viewer and have since the first ever sale and will till the last one.

The rest is confusing too. The market's changed? Really? Is there a market that hasn't? The very nature of the market- any market- is that it's ever changing.
And whilst in a sense the more everything changes the more it stays the same, in many details it's not the case and it does change. True, the letting market's changed over the last 10 years. Even more so over the last 20, 30 and 50 years. BUT from a business perspective change has to be answered by adaptation. Market change isn't a 'risk' it's a certainty. And it offers but 3 choices. Adapt to the changes and move on; or refuse or fail to adapt to the changes and go under; or leave the industry. But there's no point in saying you're leaving because things have changed. In that case there was no point ever getting into it. You leave because you can't be assed adapting to the changes you perceive.

Am I wrong?