Student costs in London
Discussion
DonkeyApple said:
Unless the university in London offers the absolute best degree for the chosen subject and/or has genuinely superior employment and career prospects then I would genuinely avoid it. The costs are huge. Not just rent but all the ancillaries of life.
We all legged it to the provinces for our degrees. The ones who stayed were mostly wasters with parents who'd lob money at funding their party lifestyle or thickies whose parents were buying connections as a last resort. I really don't think too much has changed.
I think that the second paragraph may apply to some but not the majority! Our children went to what they felt were the best unis that they could get into for the degrees they wanted to do; Oxford, Kings and Durham. They didn't encounter what I would regard as thickies at any but there was a small minority of wasters at all and there were also students from all economic backgrounds, from fully funded bursary students to those who were very wealthy - at all of them. We all legged it to the provinces for our degrees. The ones who stayed were mostly wasters with parents who'd lob money at funding their party lifestyle or thickies whose parents were buying connections as a last resort. I really don't think too much has changed.
Edited by Revisitph on Monday 17th October 03:49
Revisitph said:
DonkeyApple said:
Unless the university in London offers the absolute best degree for the chosen subject and/or has genuinely superior employment and career prospects then I would genuinely avoid it. The costs are huge. Not just rent but all the ancillaries of life.
We all legged it to the provinces for our degrees. The ones who stayed were mostly wasters with parents who'd lob money at funding their party lifestyle or thickies whose parents were buying connections as a last resort. I really don't think too much has changed.
I think that the second paragraph may apply to some but not the majority! Our children went to what they felt were the best unis that they could get into for the degrees they wanted to do; Oxford, Kings and Durham. They didn't encounter what I would regard as thickies at any but there was a small minority of wasters at all and there were also students from all economic backgrounds, from fully funded bursary students to those who were very wealthy - at all of them. We all legged it to the provinces for our degrees. The ones who stayed were mostly wasters with parents who'd lob money at funding their party lifestyle or thickies whose parents were buying connections as a last resort. I really don't think too much has changed.
Edited by Revisitph on Monday 17th October 03:49
DonkeyApple said:
Unless the university in London offers the absolute best degree for the chosen subject and/or has genuinely superior employment and career prospects then I would genuinely avoid it. The costs are huge. Not just rent but all the ancillaries of life.
We all legged it to the provinces for our degrees. The ones who stayed were mostly wasters with parents who'd lob money at funding their party lifestyle or thickies whose parents were buying connections as a last resort. I really don't think too much has changed.
He says that, other than Oxbridge, ICL is the best University for the course that he wants to do (Computer Science) and has the best employment prospects. I've suggested that the class of degree you get is probably more important than where you get it from but he disagrees.I'll be contributing £10k per annum but anything above that he'll have to provide himself. Although I think there's a decent bursary for the course that he wants to do so that should help.We all legged it to the provinces for our degrees. The ones who stayed were mostly wasters with parents who'd lob money at funding their party lifestyle or thickies whose parents were buying connections as a last resort. I really don't think too much has changed.
Countdown said:
DonkeyApple said:
Unless the university in London offers the absolute best degree for the chosen subject and/or has genuinely superior employment and career prospects then I would genuinely avoid it. The costs are huge. Not just rent but all the ancillaries of life.
We all legged it to the provinces for our degrees. The ones who stayed were mostly wasters with parents who'd lob money at funding their party lifestyle or thickies whose parents were buying connections as a last resort. I really don't think too much has changed.
He says that, other than Oxbridge, ICL is the best University for the course that he wants to do (Computer Science) and has the best employment prospects. I've suggested that the class of degree you get is probably more important than where you get it from but he disagrees.I'll be contributing £10k per annum but anything above that he'll have to provide himself. Although I think there's a decent bursary for the course that he wants to do so that should help.We all legged it to the provinces for our degrees. The ones who stayed were mostly wasters with parents who'd lob money at funding their party lifestyle or thickies whose parents were buying connections as a last resort. I really don't think too much has changed.
But unlike regional unis where it's easy to wander back to your hall or accommodation for lunch, coffee etc the thing about London is that there is no real student hub and people on the same course will be living all over Town and this tends to result in students buying coffee, beer and food at prices that are defined by banker, broker and lawyer salaries. That alone makes it incredibly expensive in contrast to most towns where entire commercial zones are priced to cater for students. Add in the elevated rent and you'd need to be pretty confident that the particular degree is that much better than can be bought elsewhere for much, much less. Just taking a girl out can easily clear £300 such is the sheer cost of drink, food and clubs etc. Cheap accommodation is most towns means living surrounded by fellow stupdents. Not here. Cheap accommodation means being surrounded by God only knows what.
All I would suggest is that you pop over to South Ken and see for yourself just how much coffee, lunch, beer etc costs in contrast to say Bristol at the other end of the M4 which by all accounts is pretty well respected for computer science.
If your son is just a normal 18 year old lad, even with his head well screwed on I think you are going to find you'll be digging deeper than you anticipated.
DonkeyApple said:
Revisitph said:
DonkeyApple said:
Unless the university in London offers the absolute best degree for the chosen subject and/or has genuinely superior employment and career prospects then I would genuinely avoid it. The costs are huge. Not just rent but all the ancillaries of life.
We all legged it to the provinces for our degrees. The ones who stayed were mostly wasters with parents who'd lob money at funding their party lifestyle or thickies whose parents were buying connections as a last resort. I really don't think too much has changed.
I think that the second paragraph may apply to some but not the majority! Our children went to what they felt were the best unis that they could get into for the degrees they wanted to do; Oxford, Kings and Durham. They didn't encounter what I would regard as thickies at any but there was a small minority of wasters at all and there were also students from all economic backgrounds, from fully funded bursary students to those who were very wealthy - at all of them. We all legged it to the provinces for our degrees. The ones who stayed were mostly wasters with parents who'd lob money at funding their party lifestyle or thickies whose parents were buying connections as a last resort. I really don't think too much has changed.
Edited by Revisitph on Monday 17th October 03:49
Now that we know that the OP's child wants to do computer science and that they are bright enough to consider Oxford / Cambridge / Imperial I'd suggest (without any particular knowledge of that subject) that given the employment prospects for a good student in that field it really doesn't matter if they run up a little more debt wherever they go, whether it be London or outside as one would hope that they could pay it off shortly after graduating if that was the best thing to do.
As you say, the student needs to go where they will do best - a colleague's child is doing Economics at Warwick as the best fit for them.
That fit doesn't only include the course. The younger sibling of one of my King's daughter's friends is doing Physics at Imperial and at her graduation this year he told me that he was finding Imperial very soulless, especially with the high intake of ultra, ultra-committed (certainly not wasters!) foreign students, the lack of a campus environment and all lectures now available online as podcasts so there was no need to leave your room or the library if you so wished.
My eldest, who, against our advice, followed us into our profession, found being one of only four students in that subject in her year at her college in Oxford was great as she spent a lot of time in the first three years with people/friends doing very different subjects and that there was a great collegiate / uni atmosphere, which we, 30+ years ago doing a vocational subject in London didn't get the benefit of.
In conclusion to this prolix response - OP, suggest they think on uni life outside the degree itself, then let your child do their computer science wherever they want. The extra cost if they chose to go to Imperial will be insignificant given their earning power with a degree in that subject from that uni and if they decide that one of the others is right for them and they get a good degree, they can always do a Master's there later.
Edited by Revisitph on Tuesday 18th October 08:54
DonkeyApple said:
We all legged it to the provinces for our degrees. The ones who stayed were mostly wasters with parents who'd lob money at funding their party lifestyle or thickies whose parents were buying connections as a last resort. I really don't think too much has changed.
Blunt, but true.DonkeyApple said:
The quality of the course clearly justifies the choice and I do believe that's the first hurdle.
But unlike regional unis where it's easy to wander back to your hall or accommodation for lunch, coffee etc the thing about London is that there is no real student hub and people on the same course will be living all over Town and this tends to result in students buying coffee, beer and food at prices that are defined by banker, broker and lawyer salaries. That alone makes it incredibly expensive in contrast to most towns where entire commercial zones are priced to cater for students. Add in the elevated rent and you'd need to be pretty confident that the particular degree is that much better than can be bought elsewhere for much, much less. Just taking a girl out can easily clear £300 such is the sheer cost of drink, food and clubs etc. Cheap accommodation is most towns means living surrounded by fellow stupdents. Not here. Cheap accommodation means being surrounded by God only knows what.
All I would suggest is that you pop over to South Ken and see for yourself just how much coffee, lunch, beer etc costs in contrast to say Bristol at the other end of the M4 which by all accounts is pretty well respected for computer science.
If your son is just a normal 18 year old lad, even with his head well screwed on I think you are going to find you'll be digging deeper than you anticipated.
My son is a "normal" 18 year old, which means that he knows everything! I've explained to him about the costs of living in London but being a budding Socialist he still believes in a Magic Money tree But unlike regional unis where it's easy to wander back to your hall or accommodation for lunch, coffee etc the thing about London is that there is no real student hub and people on the same course will be living all over Town and this tends to result in students buying coffee, beer and food at prices that are defined by banker, broker and lawyer salaries. That alone makes it incredibly expensive in contrast to most towns where entire commercial zones are priced to cater for students. Add in the elevated rent and you'd need to be pretty confident that the particular degree is that much better than can be bought elsewhere for much, much less. Just taking a girl out can easily clear £300 such is the sheer cost of drink, food and clubs etc. Cheap accommodation is most towns means living surrounded by fellow stupdents. Not here. Cheap accommodation means being surrounded by God only knows what.
All I would suggest is that you pop over to South Ken and see for yourself just how much coffee, lunch, beer etc costs in contrast to say Bristol at the other end of the M4 which by all accounts is pretty well respected for computer science.
If your son is just a normal 18 year old lad, even with his head well screwed on I think you are going to find you'll be digging deeper than you anticipated.
He's sent off his UCAS application so I guess we'll have to have a conversation once he's received his offers. Thanks to everybody for the advice/comments.
Revisitph said:
As you say, the student needs to go where they will do best - a colleague's child is doing Economics at Warwick as the best fit for them.
That fit doesn't only include the course. The younger sibling of one of my King's daughter's friends is doing Physics at Imperial and at her graduation this year he told me that he was finding Imperial very soulless, especially with the high intake of ultra, ultra-committed (certainly not wasters!) foreign students, the lack of a campus environment and all lectures now available online as podcasts so there was no need to leave your room or the library if you so wished.
Funnily enough Warwick was one of his choices That fit doesn't only include the course. The younger sibling of one of my King's daughter's friends is doing Physics at Imperial and at her graduation this year he told me that he was finding Imperial very soulless, especially with the high intake of ultra, ultra-committed (certainly not wasters!) foreign students, the lack of a campus environment and all lectures now available online as podcasts so there was no need to leave your room or the library if you so wished.
Edited by Revisitph on Tuesday 18th October 08:54
He is ridiculously committed to the point I'm worrying that he's studying too hard. The online/podcast system would suit him to a tee. Academically he's very capable however I'm hoping that moving to London will actually make him work harder at the social side of things as well.
DonkeyApple said:
Just taking a girl out can easily clear £300 such is the sheer cost of drink, food and clubs etc.
I know it's all relative to how much money you have but >£300 to take a girl out for the evening? I wouldn't spend that now on my wife unless it was a very special occasion, let alone as a student. Maybe I'm either a tight arse or just too poor for London Also personally I wouldn't be a student in London irrespective of cost. Great to work there once qualified but I think you'd have a better time elsewhere living as a student. Even if you were absolutely loaded you would find that most of your fellow students were skint, no point having money with nobody to spend it with.
DonkeyApple said:
Just taking a girl out can easily clear £300 such is the sheer cost of drink, food and clubs etc.
Ridiculous. Wrong sort of girl being taken out to the wrong sort of places. No student does this unless they are in a very cosseted duck-down world of bank of mum & dad. And if that's the case, very best of luck with the life skills, junior Behemoth said:
DonkeyApple said:
Just taking a girl out can easily clear £300 such is the sheer cost of drink, food and clubs etc.
Ridiculous. Wrong sort of girl being taken out to the wrong sort of places. No student does this unless they are in a very cosseted duck-down world of bank of mum & dad. And if that's the case, very best of luck with the life skills, junior It's the simple reality of that part of London and anyone would be very niaive to think social expenses could ever be in line with more sane parts of the UK regardless of claims to the contrary. At the same time the London Unis are quite heavily dominated by overseas students and they attract from a global pool of 8bln far more than most of the regional universities. Just vaguely attempting to play catch-up with your new friends is likely to bankrupt the average British student who in order to avoid such problems will have to isolate themselves from a significant proportion of their peers.
It's not about kids being cassettes but about parents being aware of the considerable differential that exists between regional unis and central London ones.
This is worth a read if you haven't seen it and was the reason I wont be paying the tuition fees etc up front:
http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/students/student-...
http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/students/student-...
Zingari said:
This is worth a read if you haven't seen it and was the reason I wont be paying the tuition fees etc up front:
http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/students/student-...
I think the argument is valid except that, in the OP's son's case one would hope that someone doing computer science won't spend their post-uni life working as a barista in Costa or similar low wage employment and will therefore need to pay it all back with interest. Also, if the new style government takes, for different political reasons perhaps, the sort of approach that the Lib Dems were proposing and both prevents higher earning graduates from paying of their loans early and charges them a higher interest rate then the higher earning graduates would be doubly hit. http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/students/student-...
That, mainly the first reason, is why we did pay upfront, and it could be that in the OP's case it might be a good idea as well.
DonkeyApple said:
Just vaguely attempting to play catch-up with your new friends is likely to bankrupt the average British student who in order to avoid such problems will have to isolate themselves from a significant proportion of their peers.
It's not about kids being cassettes but about parents being aware of the considerable differential that exists between regional unis and central London ones.
No naivety on my part, DonkeyApple. I'm very familiar indeed with Imperial College, in fact I had lunch at the campus canteen just a few weeks ago. If your son/daughter gets into Imperial, then 1. Congratulations as it's a top institution for most subjects, 2. They work you hard and 3. They most certainly need to live within their means. If that means taking the bus/tube/bike a handful of stops to a less swanky part of town or staying on campus to benefit from subsidised bars & entertainment, then so be it. Resisting peer pressure is a valuable life skill. The campus canteen was a bargain btw, even at external visitor prices It's not about kids being cassettes but about parents being aware of the considerable differential that exists between regional unis and central London ones.
I think you are wilfully missing the wider point on several fronts. Regardless of taking a bus a few stops away or living for 3 years in a subsidised canteen the costs for being a student in London will be significantly higher than most, if not all other UK towns. And as you know, a few bus stops or tube stations from South Ken doesn't suddenly deliver you into a student paradise of cheap beer, food and free club entry and frankly, few parents are likely to willingly want their children to travel out to the parts of London which genuinely are cheap. And this is before rent is even considered. Peer groups do play a role and while it is part of growing up to learn how to abstain etc it would be folly to expect a normal child to either be a hermit or put them in a situation where they need to be.
Studying in prime, central London will categorically have higher living costs than studying at one of the regional universities with proper campuses and significant sections of the local economy existing to cater for student budgets. That's the point that was being raised, along with a suggestion that the OP nips down the M4 and checks this aspect out as I took it from his post that he would be financing the living cost aspect.
Studying in prime, central London will categorically have higher living costs than studying at one of the regional universities with proper campuses and significant sections of the local economy existing to cater for student budgets. That's the point that was being raised, along with a suggestion that the OP nips down the M4 and checks this aspect out as I took it from his post that he would be financing the living cost aspect.
cb31 said:
Also personally I wouldn't be a student in London irrespective of cost. Great to work there once qualified but I think you'd have a better time elsewhere living as a student. Even if you were absolutely loaded you would find that most of your fellow students were skint, no point having money with nobody to spend it with.
You'd be surprised. Go to any of the posh clubs (Maddox, Trump, Cuckoo etc.) on weekedays and it's packed full of kids at tables getting Dom Perignon's etc. Most of them are students, albeit extremely well funded.Had I had the means, I can honestly say I would have loved to have that lifestyle as a student!
matrignano said:
You'd be surprised. Go to any of the posh clubs (Maddox, Trump, Cuckoo etc.) on weekedays and it's packed full of kids at tables getting Dom Perignon's etc. Most of them are students, albeit extremely well funded.
Had I had the means, I can honestly say I would have loved to have that lifestyle as a student!
I'm not sure. I don't think the long term value of spending 3 years in a crap town, sitting around pub tables with an eclectic and wide ranging mix of friends from wholly different social backgrounds, counting out group shrapnel to see if you can have another beer while still having enough for a kebab on the walk home is infinitely superior to sitting in a trendy bar with a bunch of identikids banging on about achievements that aren't theirs to own. Had I had the means, I can honestly say I would have loved to have that lifestyle as a student!
DonkeyApple said:
I think you are wilfully missing the wider point on several fronts. Regardless of taking a bus a few stops away or living for 3 years in a subsidised canteen the costs for being a student in London will be significantly higher than most, if not all other UK towns.
No, I'm not wilfully missing anything. Of course it is more expensive in London on a number of levels and yes, of course you're looking at a substantial % cost uplift vs the provinces. I was purely contesting your £300 for a night out with a girl, which I see as a wilful exaggeration that isn't helping you make your otherwise valid point To the o/p what are the options if not ICL? ICL is world class, no doubt. A degree from there vs a CS degree from 10 score other places are not comparable. It will open doors and if he makes the grade he'll be amongst the first in the job queues. Go look at the stats, they are easy to find. iirc ICL is in the top ten worldwide for CS, with Oxbridge above it. Next down is Edinburgh (a good deal cheaper to live in than London). If my son gets offered a place at ICL for a good degree, I wouldn't hesitate. But I'd rather pack him off to MIT if there's a choice
Behemoth said:
No, I'm not wilfully missing anything. Of course it is more expensive in London on a number of levels and yes, of course you're looking at a substantial % cost uplift vs the provinces. I was purely contesting your £300 for a night out with a girl, which I see as a wilful exaggeration that isn't helping you make your otherwise valid point.
To the o/p what are the options if not ICL? ICL is world class, no doubt. A degree from there vs a CS degree from 10 score other places are not comparable. It will open doors and if he makes the grade he'll be amongst the first in the job queues. Go look at the stats, they are easy to find. iirc ICL is in the top ten worldwide for CS, with Oxbridge above it. Next down is Edinburgh (a good deal cheaper to live in than London). If my son gets offered a place at ICL for a good degree, I wouldn't hesitate. But I'd rather pack him off to MIT if there's a choice
It was merely an example of the disparity. Again, just like when you thought I was referring to everyone who ever lived in London as opposed to just my peers you are taking an extreme that I was saying students in London spend £300 a night entertaining ladies. It was merely an example of how hard it is in central London to keep costs sensible. And seeing as you agree with this then it is clear that you are just willfully choosing to misinterpret. To the o/p what are the options if not ICL? ICL is world class, no doubt. A degree from there vs a CS degree from 10 score other places are not comparable. It will open doors and if he makes the grade he'll be amongst the first in the job queues. Go look at the stats, they are easy to find. iirc ICL is in the top ten worldwide for CS, with Oxbridge above it. Next down is Edinburgh (a good deal cheaper to live in than London). If my son gets offered a place at ICL for a good degree, I wouldn't hesitate. But I'd rather pack him off to MIT if there's a choice
So, seeing as you do not disagree that student life will be somewhat more costly than regional and seeing as the OP's question appeared to be in regards to him personally financing much of this element and whether he had his calculation correct then I think we can move on and stop nitpicking?
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