Looking after an elderly relative's affairs with no LPA
Discussion
My aunt is 86, has had MS (affecting her right arm and leg) for as long as I can remember, and has moved into a care home after breaking her good hip and arm in 2 separate falls.
Up until January, she was living in housing association "sheltered" accommodation - her own bungalow, with remote assistance. After the falls, she was assessed as unable to look after herself (hardly surprising, confined to a wheelchair most of the time, with properly functioning limbs), so social services arranged a move to the cheapest care home in the area. Decent enough place, and she is happy there.
While this move was happening, my dad, who had power of attorney for his sister, passed away. My mum has my aunt's bank card and cheque book, aunt signs a couple of cheques for her to pay bills, etc.
Due to a "misunderstanding" with the local authority, my aunt hadn't been paying council tax for the best part of 20 years. She tells everyone that she is skint, but she actually has well over £50k in the bank. When the council found out about her savings, she got a hefty bill to repay what she owed. They settled on her repaying £200 a month.
As she has vacated the property, the balance is now due to be paid - just over £8k.
Mum got her to sign a cheque, which was posted off to the council. Unfortunately the bank bounced the cheque, as her signature wasn't close enough to the one they had on record. This is hardly surprising, since she can barely hold a pen. While she was still mobile, she used to cash cheques at her local branch, where the staff knew her. This branch was closed a few months ago. The bank cite "fraud prevention" as the reason, although I fail to see how a cheque payable to the local county council could possibly be fraudulent.
I've spoken to the bank to try and find out how we move forward. The best they could come up with was for my aunt to go into the bank and sign a new signature slip for their records. This isn't practical, as she can't get into town (care home won't let us take her off the premises for "health and safety" reasons, and they don't have the staff to do it), and her signature will likely change again as her previously good arm recovers from the break.
Mum has tried to pay the bill by telephone, using the debit card, but the amount is too large. Council won't accept it.
It seems that we are stuck until either my aunt recovers enough to sign a cheque in a way that's acceptable to the bank, or her solicitor sorts out the new LPA and we can get the bank account changed to add mum's (or my) signature.
Anything else we can try in the meantime?
Up until January, she was living in housing association "sheltered" accommodation - her own bungalow, with remote assistance. After the falls, she was assessed as unable to look after herself (hardly surprising, confined to a wheelchair most of the time, with properly functioning limbs), so social services arranged a move to the cheapest care home in the area. Decent enough place, and she is happy there.
While this move was happening, my dad, who had power of attorney for his sister, passed away. My mum has my aunt's bank card and cheque book, aunt signs a couple of cheques for her to pay bills, etc.
Due to a "misunderstanding" with the local authority, my aunt hadn't been paying council tax for the best part of 20 years. She tells everyone that she is skint, but she actually has well over £50k in the bank. When the council found out about her savings, she got a hefty bill to repay what she owed. They settled on her repaying £200 a month.
As she has vacated the property, the balance is now due to be paid - just over £8k.
Mum got her to sign a cheque, which was posted off to the council. Unfortunately the bank bounced the cheque, as her signature wasn't close enough to the one they had on record. This is hardly surprising, since she can barely hold a pen. While she was still mobile, she used to cash cheques at her local branch, where the staff knew her. This branch was closed a few months ago. The bank cite "fraud prevention" as the reason, although I fail to see how a cheque payable to the local county council could possibly be fraudulent.
I've spoken to the bank to try and find out how we move forward. The best they could come up with was for my aunt to go into the bank and sign a new signature slip for their records. This isn't practical, as she can't get into town (care home won't let us take her off the premises for "health and safety" reasons, and they don't have the staff to do it), and her signature will likely change again as her previously good arm recovers from the break.
Mum has tried to pay the bill by telephone, using the debit card, but the amount is too large. Council won't accept it.
It seems that we are stuck until either my aunt recovers enough to sign a cheque in a way that's acceptable to the bank, or her solicitor sorts out the new LPA and we can get the bank account changed to add mum's (or my) signature.
Anything else we can try in the meantime?
What address does the bank have for your Aunt? You could set up an online account, internet banking, then you'll have full access. Bank will need to send pin numbers etc to the address they have for the account.
Have you spoken to the LA and explained? I'm sure they can wait.
Do you have the funds to pay, within the family?
Have you spoken to the LA and explained? I'm sure they can wait.
Do you have the funds to pay, within the family?
They still have her old address. They won't change anything without my aunt's authority in writing or in person. Same problems doing this - poor signature and mobility. They did suggest setting up internet banking for her. This often requires telephone banking to be set up first, which the bank says my aunt has already done. Unfortunately the password she gave to mum is incorrect, so she can't use telephone banking to set up internet banking or change the address.
Mum has phoned the LA to explain about the cheque and try paying with the debit card, so they are aware of the situation. Hopefully they will be patient.
Mum has also arranged for my aunt's mail to be redirected to her house.
I spoke to mum last night, and my sister has received the LPA paperwork. She is bringing it my house this afternoon, so that I can sign and take it back to the solicitor. I believe it takes 6 to 8 weeks after everyone has signed for the LPA to come into effect?
It's unfortunate timing that this is happening at the same time as we are dealing with dad's death. It's the first time any of us have had to deal with this sort of stuff.
Mum has phoned the LA to explain about the cheque and try paying with the debit card, so they are aware of the situation. Hopefully they will be patient.
Mum has also arranged for my aunt's mail to be redirected to her house.
I spoke to mum last night, and my sister has received the LPA paperwork. She is bringing it my house this afternoon, so that I can sign and take it back to the solicitor. I believe it takes 6 to 8 weeks after everyone has signed for the LPA to come into effect?
It's unfortunate timing that this is happening at the same time as we are dealing with dad's death. It's the first time any of us have had to deal with this sort of stuff.
megaphone said:
What address does the bank have for your Aunt? You could set up an online account, internet banking, then you'll have full access. Bank will need to send pin numbers etc to the address they have for the account.
The Aunt is regarded as a vulnerable person. I've witnessed enough people taking advantage of elderly relatives (no accusation to OP). The bank is acting correctly.I recently faced >similar< circumstances with the MiL and thankfully an online account was already in place after FiL passed away. When we tried to move £500 over from one account (Halifax) to another account (Santander) the account was immediately suspended as this was an unusual activity. When we tried to pay the funeral bill from the Santander account that too was suspended for unusual activity.
My MiL had to go through excruciating phone security to make sure all was in order before access was regained. It was very annoying but very necessary.
When I used to run a Charity with over 860 flats throughout the North of England I witnessed families abuse elderly relatives and steal their pension money. I had to involve the Police on several occasions. I sometimes ended up with phlegm in my hair but the abuse always stopped. Jimmy McGovern's new bleak programme - Broken - is not that far removed from reality.
You need to visit the Bank and explain the situation. Same with the LA. Your circumstances are not unique and you are not alone. Good luck.
clockworks said:
It seems that we are stuck until either my aunt recovers enough to sign a cheque in a way that's acceptable to the bank, or her solicitor sorts out the new LPA and we can get the bank account changed to add mum's (or my) signature.
Anything else we can try in the meantime?
Not really.Anything else we can try in the meantime?
Unless there's a PoA in place, then she is the only person who can act on her behalf.
You don't need a solicitor for a PoA. You can very easily DIY it - get it started NOW...
https://www.lastingpowerofattorney.service.gov.uk/...
I appreciate that the bank need to protect my aunt's account. I know that financial abuse goes on. I'd expect them to look closely at a cheque made out to a private individual, but a local authority? How could that be in any way dodgy?
Mum is with the same bank, but a different branch. She tried to sort out my aunt's cheque problem when she visited the main branch to let them know about dad's death, switching their joint account to just her name.
They weren't that helpful or knowledgeable, contradicting the information given on the bank's website about what will happen to a joint account.
Poor customer service and non-UK help desk is the reason I stopped banking with HSBC 10 years ago.
My aunt insisted on using her own solicitor to sort out her LPA, despite not dealing with them since they drew up her will and original LPA (naming dad) nearly 20 years ago. They are charging her nearly £900.
This whole problem arose because my aunt only named my dad in the original LPA. Dad was convinced that he would outlive his sister. After all, she was 4 years older, and has MS, while dad had never been ill.....
We are doing things properly this time around, with mum and me named on my aunt's LPA, with my much younger sister named as replacement.
Mum has also set up an LPA, naming me and my younger sister, and had the will updated. This is costing her about half what my aunt is paying.
Mum is with the same bank, but a different branch. She tried to sort out my aunt's cheque problem when she visited the main branch to let them know about dad's death, switching their joint account to just her name.
They weren't that helpful or knowledgeable, contradicting the information given on the bank's website about what will happen to a joint account.
Poor customer service and non-UK help desk is the reason I stopped banking with HSBC 10 years ago.
My aunt insisted on using her own solicitor to sort out her LPA, despite not dealing with them since they drew up her will and original LPA (naming dad) nearly 20 years ago. They are charging her nearly £900.
This whole problem arose because my aunt only named my dad in the original LPA. Dad was convinced that he would outlive his sister. After all, she was 4 years older, and has MS, while dad had never been ill.....
We are doing things properly this time around, with mum and me named on my aunt's LPA, with my much younger sister named as replacement.
Mum has also set up an LPA, naming me and my younger sister, and had the will updated. This is costing her about half what my aunt is paying.
clockworks said:
I appreciate that the bank need to protect my aunt's account. I know that financial abuse goes on. I'd expect them to look closely at a cheque made out to a private individual, but a local authority? How could that be in any way dodgy?
"Gran/Auntie/Mrs Miggins - I'm a bit short this month, and the council are on at me - can you lend me a bit?"clockworks said:
Due to a "misunderstanding" with the local authority, my aunt hadn't been paying council tax for the best part of 20 years. She tells everyone that she is skint, but she actually has well over £50k in the bank. When the council found out about her savings, she got a hefty bill to repay what she owed.
Has she also been claiming pension credit?This is a common nightmare for families when old people pass away. They divvi out the money and spend it on holidays and new cars and then 6 months later DWP wants £20K+ back.
Sheepshanks said:
Has she also been claiming pension credit?
This is a common nightmare for families when old people pass away. They divvi out the money and spend it on holidays and new cars and then 6 months later DWP wants £20K+ back.
Possible nightmare.This is a common nightmare for families when old people pass away. They divvi out the money and spend it on holidays and new cars and then 6 months later DWP wants £20K+ back.
Pension Credit is withdrawn at a rate of £1 for every £500 of savings above £10k.
OK, point taken. It could be a cheque to pay someone else's bill with the council.
Not sure if she has been claiming pension credit, or anything else beyond the council tax help that she was receiving for many years, but I do know that social services are currently picking up the tab for the care home. She will probably get a bill for this when they find out how much she has in her savings accounts.
The way I see it, the state will eventually get most of her money one way or another. Not a problem for me, mum, or my siblings, as most of anything that's left is willed to relatives of her late husband. I guess that's fair enough, as most of what she has is as a result his company pension. He earned it, so it should go to his blood family. We'd all prefer that she spent it on herself while she is still able to enjoy it.
It's a bit annoying that these relatives are doing nothing to help though. Mum has already had a couple of phone calls from one of the future beneficiaries, hassling her to do more to keep the costs down, and their inheritance potential up. All very sad. None of them have been to visit her in hospital or at the care home, but she used to visit them for holidays.
Why do old people feel the need to live frugally and leave money to relatives? I've spent the past few years trying to convince my parents to spend what they've got on living out their dreams. It's too late for dad. Hopefully mum will see sense, and take a few holidays, etc., while she is still in relatively good health.
Not sure if she has been claiming pension credit, or anything else beyond the council tax help that she was receiving for many years, but I do know that social services are currently picking up the tab for the care home. She will probably get a bill for this when they find out how much she has in her savings accounts.
The way I see it, the state will eventually get most of her money one way or another. Not a problem for me, mum, or my siblings, as most of anything that's left is willed to relatives of her late husband. I guess that's fair enough, as most of what she has is as a result his company pension. He earned it, so it should go to his blood family. We'd all prefer that she spent it on herself while she is still able to enjoy it.
It's a bit annoying that these relatives are doing nothing to help though. Mum has already had a couple of phone calls from one of the future beneficiaries, hassling her to do more to keep the costs down, and their inheritance potential up. All very sad. None of them have been to visit her in hospital or at the care home, but she used to visit them for holidays.
Why do old people feel the need to live frugally and leave money to relatives? I've spent the past few years trying to convince my parents to spend what they've got on living out their dreams. It's too late for dad. Hopefully mum will see sense, and take a few holidays, etc., while she is still in relatively good health.
clockworks said:
It's a bit annoying that these relatives are doing nothing to help though. Mum has already had a couple of phone calls from one of the future beneficiaries, hassling her to do more to keep the costs down, and their inheritance potential up. All very sad. None of them have been to visit her in hospital or at the care home, but she used to visit them for holidays.
Sounds exactly the same as my wife's Godfathers family. They were here next day when he mentioned altering his Will though, and there was constant pressure to look after "family" with the point being made that my wife wasn't a relative - although he regarded (and even introduced her) as his daughter.clockworks said:
Why do old people feel the need to live frugally and leave money to relatives? I've spent the past few years trying to convince my parents to spend what they've got on living out their dreams. It's too late for dad. Hopefully mum will see sense, and take a few holidays, etc., while she is still in relatively good health.
I was utterly gobsmacked to discover my mother had a 6 figure sum in various ISAs etc. She's always been tight, but her reasoning was she wanted to be in a position to help us (particularly my two brothers who have had pretty rocky employment histories) if we ever got into financial difficulty. In the end that was never tested and I suspect it was just a convenient reason. It broke her heart hosing £200K into a care home - there were only two other people in the place paying their own way.
clockworks said:
OK, point taken. It could be a cheque to pay someone else's bill with the council.
Not sure if she has been claiming pension credit, or anything else beyond the council tax help that she was receiving for many years, but I do know that social services are currently picking up the tab for the care home. She will probably get a bill for this when they find out how much she has in her savings accounts.
The way I see it, the state will eventually get most of her money one way or another. Not a problem for me, mum, or my siblings, as most of anything that's left is willed to relatives of her late husband. I guess that's fair enough, as most of what she has is as a result his company pension. He earned it, so it should go to his blood family. We'd all prefer that she spent it on herself while she is still able to enjoy it.
It's a bit annoying that these relatives are doing nothing to help though. Mum has already had a couple of phone calls from one of the future beneficiaries, hassling her to do more to keep the costs down, and their inheritance potential up. All very sad. None of them have been to visit her in hospital or at the care home, but she used to visit them for holidays.
Why do old people feel the need to live frugally and leave money to relatives? I've spent the past few years trying to convince my parents to spend what they've got on living out their dreams. It's too late for dad. Hopefully mum will see sense, and take a few holidays, etc., while she is still in relatively good health.
Sorry you're having a difficult time at the moment.Not sure if she has been claiming pension credit, or anything else beyond the council tax help that she was receiving for many years, but I do know that social services are currently picking up the tab for the care home. She will probably get a bill for this when they find out how much she has in her savings accounts.
The way I see it, the state will eventually get most of her money one way or another. Not a problem for me, mum, or my siblings, as most of anything that's left is willed to relatives of her late husband. I guess that's fair enough, as most of what she has is as a result his company pension. He earned it, so it should go to his blood family. We'd all prefer that she spent it on herself while she is still able to enjoy it.
It's a bit annoying that these relatives are doing nothing to help though. Mum has already had a couple of phone calls from one of the future beneficiaries, hassling her to do more to keep the costs down, and their inheritance potential up. All very sad. None of them have been to visit her in hospital or at the care home, but she used to visit them for holidays.
Why do old people feel the need to live frugally and leave money to relatives? I've spent the past few years trying to convince my parents to spend what they've got on living out their dreams. It's too late for dad. Hopefully mum will see sense, and take a few holidays, etc., while she is still in relatively good health.
I'm interested to understand why you fear the State will get most of her money. I know she owes the LA for Council Tax, but what else.....?
TFP said:
Sorry you're having a difficult time at the moment.
I'm interested to understand why you fear the State will get most of her money. I know she owes the LA for Council Tax, but what else.....?
Depends when (if) the rules on savings and funding care homes change. As things stand, I think she'll be paying for care until her savings drop to £23k.I'm interested to understand why you fear the State will get most of her money. I know she owes the LA for Council Tax, but what else.....?
rockin said:
The answer to doing this sort of stuff without a PoA (Power of Attorney) is to get a joint bank account set up with either person able to sign BEFORE the oldster gets too wobbly.
Or get set up for proper electronic banking where no signatures are required.
Yes, this would've made things a lot simpler, a backup plan to dad having LPA for his sister.Or get set up for proper electronic banking where no signatures are required.
clockworks said:
Depends when (if) the rules on savings and funding care homes change. As things stand, I think she'll be paying for care until her savings drop to £23k.
Ok, so she stands a reasonable chance of not paying anything given what is proposed and her level of assets.Regardless, its not money she's paying to the State anyway is it ? Most care homes are privately run, and she'd be paying for care for herself that she needs.
TFP said:
Ok, so she stands a reasonable chance of not paying anything given what is proposed and her level of assets.
Regardless, its not money she's paying to the State anyway is it ? Most care homes are privately run, and she'd be paying for care for herself that she needs.
If she was skint, the state would pay. Because she lived fairly frugally, she will pay until her savings drop. No, she won't be paying the state directly, but she will be saving the state paying for her care for a year or so, unless the rules change.Regardless, its not money she's paying to the State anyway is it ? Most care homes are privately run, and she'd be paying for care for herself that she needs.
To make it clear, I am not a beneficiary in her will. None of my immediate family are. When she passes I am the executor, and will have LPA (along with mum, and my sister as replacement), once that is sorted. I have no financial interest in my aunt's affairs, but will get hassled by those that do (nephew and neice of her late husband).
TFP said:
Ok, so she stands a reasonable chance of not paying anything given what is proposed and her level of assets.
Any changes are not likely to be quick and meantime she'll be burning through her cash at something like £3000 per month. Of course the impact on her savings is mitigated by whatever income she has so it's not quite as dramatic as it seems. Now her money is known about she can't do anything significant to get rid of it.I don't know if this is always possible, but usually LA's pay lower rates to care homes than self-funders, so if you can do it through them you'll pay less. With wife's Godfather, who had a property but little cash, we did that (although he died 2 weeks after going into care anyway). I tried it with my Mum and her LA said as she was self-funding they wouldn't get involved.
TooMany2cvs said:
So local council tax payers should subsidise the next generation's inheritance?
Did I say that? No, I was merely saying that, in so many ways, it doesn't pay to have savings. That's why I made it clear that I am not a future beneficiary. How she ends up spending her savings makes no difference to me. Blow it on a world cruise, spend it on care, leave it to other family? It's her money, her choice.I am a little concerned that she is telling porkies to social services though. Does having LPA (in a couple of months) place any obligation on mum or me to inform social services of her financial situation?
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