Crypto Currency Thread (Vol.2)
Discussion
Scootersp said:
Without things like silver your iphone wouldn't work as well? It used to just be shiney/shiney but now unlike then it's used in many things including bitcoin mining rigs?
Tesla/Apple etc etc need a steady supply of it, to make their products that gives it an intrinsic value?
https://www.cnet.com/tech/mobile/the-metals-inside...
Gold and Silver are commodities with underlying demand due to industrial, decorative and other uses. That doesn't give it intrinsic value. The market gives it value based on its properties. Tesla/Apple etc etc need a steady supply of it, to make their products that gives it an intrinsic value?
https://www.cnet.com/tech/mobile/the-metals-inside...
But the higher it rises in price, the more demand there is, the more human beings will be incentivized to go find it and meet that demand.
Plus of course gold and silver don't intrinsically do anything. If we are hopeful of keeping track of our natural resources and their supply we would need some kind of unfalsifiable system that was outside the influence of political corruption to ensure it was recorded accurately.
https://fabrity.com/blog/how-blockchain-provenance...
https://fabrity.com/blog/how-blockchain-provenance...
- link to Hyperledger Fabric spam, I doubt that will be the winning technology but it's a decent article.
Edited by dimots on Wednesday 20th March 14:50
RichTT said:
Gold and Silver are commodities with underlying demand due to industrial, decorative and other uses. That doesn't give it intrinsic value.
It does by the definition I found?"Intrinsic value is the anticipated or calculated value of a company, stock, currency or product determined through fundamental analysis. It includes tangible and intangible factors. Intrinsic value is also called the real value and may or may not be the same as the current market value."
So some will argue the intrinsic value of Bitcoin is low despite its current high market price.
I would argue the market price of silver is low and it's intrinsic value is higher.
I would argue Silvers intrinsic value is more tangible, and Bitcoins intrinsic value being more intangible?
Scootersp said:
It does by the definition I found?
"Intrinsic value is the anticipated or calculated value of a company, stock, currency or product determined through fundamental analysis. It includes tangible and intangible factors. Intrinsic value is also called the real value and may or may not be the same as the current market value."
So some will argue the intrinsic value of Bitcoin is low despite its current high market price.
I would argue the market price of silver is low and it's intrinsic value is higher.
I would argue Silvers intrinsic value is more tangible, and Bitcoins intrinsic value being more intangible?
But what the hell does that even mean? The intrinsic value of breathable air is more tangible than anything but it's free. You can obsess over this bulls"Intrinsic value is the anticipated or calculated value of a company, stock, currency or product determined through fundamental analysis. It includes tangible and intangible factors. Intrinsic value is also called the real value and may or may not be the same as the current market value."
So some will argue the intrinsic value of Bitcoin is low despite its current high market price.
I would argue the market price of silver is low and it's intrinsic value is higher.
I would argue Silvers intrinsic value is more tangible, and Bitcoins intrinsic value being more intangible?
t as long as you like, meanwhile hashrate up, value up, tick tock next block.dimots said:
But what the hell does that even mean? The intrinsic value of breathable air is more tangible than anything but it's free. You can obsess over this bullst as long as you like, meanwhile hashrate up, value up, tick tock next block.
If you understood what it meant then you'd understand why bitcoin is has no value. t as long as you like, meanwhile hashrate up, value up, tick tock next block.But hey, as long as the hashrate is going up, consuming ever more of the world's precious energy resources doing nothing useful then I guess who cares about fundamental value, practical uses, common sense, eh?
You're consciously ignoring any discussion about what it's actually worth and burying your head in the sand. It's really really sad on a thread about Bitcoin/crypto that discussion is not wanted. It just becomes a shilling thread, and for that you may as well go to reddit or have a circle-jerk in your telegram group, which in itself is hilarious that you're so offended by mine (and other's) posts on here you need to have a private area where you can discuss without any worries about people disagreeing.
Condi said:
You're consciously ignoring any discussion about what it's actually worth and burying your head in the sand. It's really really sad on a thread about Bitcoin/crypto that discussion is not wanted. It just becomes a shilling thread, and for that you may as well go to reddit or have a circle-jerk in your telegram group, which in itself is hilarious that you're so offended by mine (and other's) posts on here you need to have a private area where you can discuss without any worries about people disagreeing.
Consciously ignoring discussion about 'tangible value' when debating bitcoin vs paper shares of gold or silver? Yes that's a thing I do.Scootersp said:
It does by the definition I found?
"Intrinsic value is the anticipated or calculated value of a company, stock, currency or product determined through fundamental analysis. It includes tangible and intangible factors. Intrinsic value is also called the real value and may or may not be the same as the current market value."
So some will argue the intrinsic value of Bitcoin is low despite its current high market price.
I would argue the market price of silver is low and it's intrinsic value is higher.
I would argue Silvers intrinsic value is more tangible, and Bitcoins intrinsic value being more intangible?
Intrinsic value as a concept is a Marxist trope that stems from his labor theory of value. A debunked hangover. You can make an objective assessment of what you think something might be worth given an unlimited number of variables. But that is still value applied by a human being. It is not intrinsic to the subject in question. "Intrinsic value is the anticipated or calculated value of a company, stock, currency or product determined through fundamental analysis. It includes tangible and intangible factors. Intrinsic value is also called the real value and may or may not be the same as the current market value."
So some will argue the intrinsic value of Bitcoin is low despite its current high market price.
I would argue the market price of silver is low and it's intrinsic value is higher.
I would argue Silvers intrinsic value is more tangible, and Bitcoins intrinsic value being more intangible?
Being tangible or not is irrelevant in the digital age. Does the number 10 on your banking app balance represent more or less value in real terms than a 10 pound note in your hand. One took zero effort to make, the other took skill, time, materials and energy. But currently the market accepts them as equivalents.
Value is not a metaphysically existing substance. Something is valued simply by there being someone who actively values it. Value is simply the outcome of supply and demand.
dimots said:
But what the hell does that even mean? The intrinsic value of breathable air is more tangible than anything but it's free. You can obsess over this bullst as long as you like, meanwhile hashrate up, value up, tick tock next block.
I don't obsess? t as long as you like, meanwhile hashrate up, value up, tick tock next block.It's not that hard is it? "It includes tangible and intangible factors"
So for air what are the factors? it has a high intrinsic value because it's essential for life, but also is just there, all around us, and we can all access it any time, this is another factor and so it turns out, as you say, to be free (note how pure oxygen isn't, wasn't in covid times because that needs processing of free air to get, there is another factor?) So various factors come into play and they have differing effects on price, that's not so difficult is it?
Water, that also has high intrinsic value to all of us, could be obtained almost free with some personal effort but generally needs some processing storing etc and so it isn't free but cheap, at least here because it's so plentiful, where it's more scarce it costs more?
Other stuff we have to grow or we have to dig up, that's not so easy and so costs for those depend on more factors? overall relative scarcity still being one? scarcity, that's an important part of the Bitcoin thesis isn't it?
What are Bitcoin's factors? it's scarcity was decided arbitrarily by a still uncertain someone, correct?
"Satoshi explained that the decision to cap Bitcoin's supply at 21 million was an “educated guess,” since it needed to be decided in advance without knowing how the future of Bitcoin would unfold."
I think the fact that there is more computing power directed towards bitcoin than towards any other single pursuit on the planet, that people place increasingly more value on it, that governments and government agencies are wriitng it into law and into their financial systems, that it has still not been hacked, has never gone down and continues to build a permanent public ledger of every single transaction without central control or authority is MORE of an influence over my views on bitcoin that what "Condi off of Pistonheads" thinks.
The basic fact is this - you have been wrong the whole time and you stil haven't admitted it to yourself. Bitcoin is changing the world, it is so secure now that if tokenization of stocks is coming (and it is) it will have to be secured by bitcoin. That's why Blackrock and co want to hold so much bitcoin. There's a massive change happening and you, for reasons known only to yourself, have chosen to deny it is happening.
I don't care that much, it doesn't affect me, the only person being disadvantaged by your views is you
The basic fact is this - you have been wrong the whole time and you stil haven't admitted it to yourself. Bitcoin is changing the world, it is so secure now that if tokenization of stocks is coming (and it is) it will have to be secured by bitcoin. That's why Blackrock and co want to hold so much bitcoin. There's a massive change happening and you, for reasons known only to yourself, have chosen to deny it is happening.
I don't care that much, it doesn't affect me, the only person being disadvantaged by your views is you
Edited by dimots on Wednesday 20th March 17:07
Scootersp said:
What are Bitcoin's factors? it's scarcity was decided arbitrarily by a still uncertain someone, correct?
"Satoshi explained that the decision to cap Bitcoin's supply at 21 million was an “educated guess,” since it needed to be decided in advance without knowing how the future of Bitcoin would unfold."
A definably limited supply is not what drives value. It is the minimum basic requirement for a token to be considered a contender for an emerging, ubiquitous, global money. There are other properties that people value, which is a good enough reason for many to hold it as an asset. But that is for you to value subjectively. "Satoshi explained that the decision to cap Bitcoin's supply at 21 million was an “educated guess,” since it needed to be decided in advance without knowing how the future of Bitcoin would unfold."
No such thing as intrinsic value. Only a weighting of opinions.
RichTT said:
A definably limited supply is not what drives value. It is the minimum basic requirement for a token to be considered a contender for an emerging, ubiquitous, global money. There are other properties that people value, which is a good enough reason for many to hold it as an asset. But that is for you to value subjectively.
No such thing as intrinsic value. Only a weighting of opinions.
What I rail against is the inability of some folks to grasp that value isn't tangible. That somehow because crypto lays bare the unreality of all markets - its just more obvious.No such thing as intrinsic value. Only a weighting of opinions.
Why is a merc more expensive than a Skoda - when some have Renault engines - for example. Because Merc has built a "brand". Brand doesnt exist so the perceived value or something doesnt exist in a hold it in my hand way.
Everything in our society is now a system designed to ensure money sloshes around in a manipulated way. If something is perceived to have a value - it has a value.
Apple stock has risen and risen - then suddenly tumbles, why - because stockholders think Apple has met its own profit targets. That bears no relation to the level of their assets or tangible things. Its brand identity tied to artificial performance metrics - this is why the debate make me chuckle. Its as if either reality is actually true - money doesnt even really exist, we just happened to have tied a society to the concept of it.
g4ry13 said:
A nice little haul!
Woman found with £2bn in Bitcoin convicted of money laundering arrangement offence
I was wondering what happens to the btc??Woman found with £2bn in Bitcoin convicted of money laundering arrangement offence
White-Noise said:
g4ry13 said:
I was wondering what happens to the btc??It's ~₿61000. Current value is about £3.2bn at the time of writing.
Edited by CraigyMc on Thursday 21st March 10:43
halo34 said:
What I rail against is the inability of some folks to grasp that value isn't tangible. That somehow because crypto lays bare the unreality of all markets - its just more obvious.
Why is a merc more expensive than a Skoda - when some have Renault engines - for example. Because Merc has built a "brand". Brand doesn't exist so the perceived value or something doesn't exist in a hold it in my hand way.
Not all value is tangible, but some element usually is, regardless of price the Skoda and Merc do the same job, they have a tangible value because they can take you from A to B, like the fuel they use has value. Also Mercedes built the brand by historically creating quality cars (higher % of tangible value) vehicles such that now they can 'get away' with sneaking in the odd Renault powered one? (higher intangible %). but they didn't build the brand purely on marketing hype/intangibles it was built by using solid materials and engineering, tangible things? In the same way that the Skoda brand suffers from it's old days of using poor quality parts and engineering?Why is a merc more expensive than a Skoda - when some have Renault engines - for example. Because Merc has built a "brand". Brand doesn't exist so the perceived value or something doesn't exist in a hold it in my hand way.
It's for the buyers to decide and work out their own value, based on both how much is genuine quality materials/engineering and how much is marketing and branding (not always easy to do), we do this all the time, when choosing, supermarkets, clothes etc etc who is denying there is an intangible element and that element has varying value to people?
I'll accept that I am more focussed on the tangible elements of things and less concerned with branding etc, I just personally think investing your hard earned money in things that are higher in their intangible nature is more risky.
Tangible elements generally provide a base cost/price for things, the intangible elements create more of the opportunity to enhance the price/value over and above this?
CraigyMc said:
It'll be forfeit to the crown most likely.
It's ~?61000. Current value is about £3.2bn at the time of writing.
So this is money pinched from investment fraud in China, laundered in the UK, and the entire lot forfeited to the crown?It's ~?61000. Current value is about £3.2bn at the time of writing.
Edited by CraigyMc on Thursday 21st March 10:43
No wonder the banks are losing money, this is way more efficient than letting them do the laundering and the crown only getting tax from banker's bonuses
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