Boomer life according to the economist
Discussion
Plus add in personal responsibility for pensions now too, but the most important years for compound interest (early ones) are typically not possible as you need to save every penny into a house deposit and then trying to get rid of the worst of the debt once you buy, as you typically had to stretch yourself. So the future retirement won’t be great either due to the inability to save early because of mortgages and student loans. While government spending will have to reduce on pensions too, from the debt were in (which still has loads to grow due to demographics).
Scootersp said:
...cheap air travel/holidays
Talking to an old boy in Costco yesterday, and he was bemoaning flight prices now, claiming that he'd had a lot of fantastic worldwide trips over the last 20-30 years but couldn't afford as many now....so I think there's another ship that has well and truly sailed (if I can deliberately use that metaphor). And again it's the boomers and (some of) Gen-X who've been able to take most advantage due to having the disposable income to do so...
If Labour’s landslide is as big as some polls predict, we’re going to have a very different cohort of MPs. For a start it’ll be much younger on average, and we could for first time a House of Commons which is majority renter (rather than owner-occupier).
I think we under-estimate the impact that could have on a government’s direction.
I think we under-estimate the impact that could have on a government’s direction.
havoc said:
Scootersp said:
...cheap air travel/holidays
Talking to an old boy in Costco yesterday, and he was bemoaning flight prices now, claiming that he'd had a lot of fantastic worldwide trips over the last 20-30 years but couldn't afford as many now....so I think there's another ship that has well and truly sailed (if I can deliberately use that metaphor). And again it's the boomers and (some of) Gen-X who've been able to take most advantage due to having the disposable income to do so...
I do agree that living off benefits is an option that some will take but if it happens more now it will be because of the availability of support, not the dispair driving more people towards it. It’s an issue for sure but it is a benefit that boomers did not get as easily so really it’s just another example of how hard millennials don’t have it.
But without quoting each response, all I’m seeing is the same cherry picking of the same issues rather than looking at the overall picture.
I posted this on the second page of this thread, it’s still all true.
.
But without quoting each response, all I’m seeing is the same cherry picking of the same issues rather than looking at the overall picture.
I posted this on the second page of this thread, it’s still all true.
Steve H said:
Pensions may have been more generous but they were not more widely available than they are now where workplace pensions are the norm. A large proportion of boomers were not well educated professionals with DB pensions, a lot have no pension at all.
For sure housing costs have increased enormously but food prices have shrunk. According to the ONS, from 1957 to 2016 the proportion of a household’s income that went on housing has gone from 9% up to 18% but the spend on food has gone down from 33% to 16%.
By 1980 the basic rate of income tax had dropped, yes, dropped, to 30%. The basic rate in the early 70s was around the same as our higher rate now and highest rate in 1980 was 60%, down from 83% in 1974.
Only about 15% of boomers went to uni, now the higher education rate is more like 50%. I do get the idea that free education at all levels should benefit the country as a whole but that only works if it leads them to something useful. If a large proportion of graduates will be paying back the cost of their education till retirement then many of them should probably have learned an actual skill or trade instead of following the mantra that you need a degree no matter what bulls
t subject it is in.
For sure there will be individual examples at all extremes but one of those extremes is the where people have become millionaires by sitting in a little semi detached in the London burbs, it’s not the norm even if it seems it to the journo at the Economist who lives in that bubble.
Hit some millennials up with doubled food costs, lower education rates, more tax, higher interest rates, less employment, less welfare access and only three TV channels and see if they prefer their life today or not For sure housing costs have increased enormously but food prices have shrunk. According to the ONS, from 1957 to 2016 the proportion of a household’s income that went on housing has gone from 9% up to 18% but the spend on food has gone down from 33% to 16%.
By 1980 the basic rate of income tax had dropped, yes, dropped, to 30%. The basic rate in the early 70s was around the same as our higher rate now and highest rate in 1980 was 60%, down from 83% in 1974.
Only about 15% of boomers went to uni, now the higher education rate is more like 50%. I do get the idea that free education at all levels should benefit the country as a whole but that only works if it leads them to something useful. If a large proportion of graduates will be paying back the cost of their education till retirement then many of them should probably have learned an actual skill or trade instead of following the mantra that you need a degree no matter what bulls
t subject it is in. For sure there will be individual examples at all extremes but one of those extremes is the where people have become millionaires by sitting in a little semi detached in the London burbs, it’s not the norm even if it seems it to the journo at the Economist who lives in that bubble.
.Almost all of those points have been replied to and answered.
- Tax rates: do you know a single person who had to pay that 83% tax rate? No one paid them pretty much. What about the discounts you got at the same time?
- Education rates: basically similar jobs these days, but many low paid jobs now demand degrees to do it, so instead of before where you were paid for an apprenticeship now you have to take a lot of debt on for the same poor pay.
- Interest rates: house prices were far lower, and rate changes were far less in real terms than we see now (for example the very short lived 15% everyone bangs on about was just 2x the actual money in interest you had to pay before, we had around 4x increase now, so a much bigger real world change). You also could write off some of the interest payments back then too (can't remember the name of the mechanism).
And so on.
And people do know Boomers had it hard and not all are wealthy. But over their lifetime as a generation it will be a lot easier than the next generations, due to a lot of the other issues showed earlier.
From what I have seen there's not many choosing to live on benefits, but a lot more are not choosing to climb the career ladder to get as much salary as possible. They don't see much reward for work given pretty much their entire working life salaries have only matched inflation, and given student debt/pensions/house prices they just plan for a "smaller" lifestyle instead with no likely retirement, rather than the big house/lots of cars view of success before. That's not good for society where the system is set up for growth, and we already have a falling number of workers to make money to pay for the massive block of older people's pensions and healthcare.
I won't be surprised to see some sort of change of service on the NHS at some point, as well as pensions. The costs are huge now and still have to go up a lot given the demographics.
- Tax rates: do you know a single person who had to pay that 83% tax rate? No one paid them pretty much. What about the discounts you got at the same time?
- Education rates: basically similar jobs these days, but many low paid jobs now demand degrees to do it, so instead of before where you were paid for an apprenticeship now you have to take a lot of debt on for the same poor pay.
- Interest rates: house prices were far lower, and rate changes were far less in real terms than we see now (for example the very short lived 15% everyone bangs on about was just 2x the actual money in interest you had to pay before, we had around 4x increase now, so a much bigger real world change). You also could write off some of the interest payments back then too (can't remember the name of the mechanism).
And so on.
And people do know Boomers had it hard and not all are wealthy. But over their lifetime as a generation it will be a lot easier than the next generations, due to a lot of the other issues showed earlier.
From what I have seen there's not many choosing to live on benefits, but a lot more are not choosing to climb the career ladder to get as much salary as possible. They don't see much reward for work given pretty much their entire working life salaries have only matched inflation, and given student debt/pensions/house prices they just plan for a "smaller" lifestyle instead with no likely retirement, rather than the big house/lots of cars view of success before. That's not good for society where the system is set up for growth, and we already have a falling number of workers to make money to pay for the massive block of older people's pensions and healthcare.
I won't be surprised to see some sort of change of service on the NHS at some point, as well as pensions. The costs are huge now and still have to go up a lot given the demographics.
Edited by NRS on Monday 15th April 08:27
NRS said:
And people do know Boomers had it hard and not all are wealthy. But over their lifetime as a generation it will be a lot easier than the next generations, due to a lot of the other issues showed earlier.
Likewise, that's been answered. Times change, contexts change, and people living and starting to work and entering the housing market at a certain time do so within political policies enacted before they could vote, and when they can vote, they can only vote for what's available. Politicians were/are inept and self-serving. Everyone can strive to make the best of what's available, or not. Nobody in any generation chose to be born in any location at any given time. Being somehow annoyed that contexts change and that different generations live through different contexts is very odd. Being born in 1950 or 1990, that's a fault thing somehow...(it's not). The contexts involved in living after being born in 1950 just after the war or 1990 just after the tech revolution got going are different existences, nss.turbobloke said:
NRS said:
And people do know Boomers had it hard and not all are wealthy. But over their lifetime as a generation it will be a lot easier than the next generations, due to a lot of the other issues showed earlier.
Likewise, that's been answered. Times change, contexts change, and people living and starting to work and entering the housing market at a certain time do so within political policies enacted before they could vote, and when they can vote, they can only vote for what's available. Politicians were/are inept and self-serving. Everyone can strive to make the best of what's available, or not. Nobody in any generation chose to be born in any location at any given time. Being somehow annoyed that contexts change and that different generations live through different contexts is very odd. Being born in 1950 or 1990, that's a fault thing somehow...(it's not). The contexts involved in living after being born in 1950 just after the war or 1990 just after the tech revolution got going are different existences, nss.NRS said:
Almost all of those points have been replied to and answered.
- Tax rates: do you know a single person who had to pay that 83% tax rate? No one paid them pretty much.
Cherry picking again. The basic rate then was the same as the higher rate is now. Anyone on the higher rate now is earning more than 50% over the average wage but only paying the same as every boomer had to.- Tax rates: do you know a single person who had to pay that 83% tax rate? No one paid them pretty much.
NRS said:
What about the discounts you got at the same time?
- Education rates: basically similar jobs these days, but many low paid jobs now demand degrees to do it, so instead of before where you were paid for an apprenticeship now you have to take a lot of debt on for the same poor pay.
So don’t get into debt for a pointless degree that leads to a badly paid job! People have choices and there is plenty of work that pays well above average and that doesn’t require a degree. - Education rates: basically similar jobs these days, but many low paid jobs now demand degrees to do it, so instead of before where you were paid for an apprenticeship now you have to take a lot of debt on for the same poor pay.
Getting rid of apprenticeships was a foolish policy no doubt written by a graduate who didn’t realise that things will always need building and fixing. But that has helped the current generation by increasing demand and opportunities for those who are willing to work with their hands and learn a trade.
NRS said:
- Interest rates: house prices were far lower, and rate changes were far less in real terms than we see now (for example the very short lived 15% everyone bangs on about was just 2x the actual money in interest you had to pay before, we had around 4x increase now, so a much bigger real world change). You also could write off some of the interest payments back then too (can't remember the name of the mechanism).
And so on.
15% is still 15% no matter what it was previously. But yes, housing is more expensive, it now takes up roughly 9% more of household income, and food takes up roughly 17% less. And so on.
NRS said:
From what I have seen there's not many choosing to live on benefits, but a lot more are not choosing to climb the career ladder to get as much salary as possible. They don't see much reward for work given pretty much their entire working life salaries have only matched inflation, and given student debt/pensions/house prices they just plan for a "smaller" lifestyle instead with no likely retirement, rather than the big house/lots of cars view of success before.
It doesn’t make a lot of sense that the trend for an entire generation would be to keep working but just settle for having less rather than trying to improve their situation, or just not bother at all. There were people who didn’t push forward in every age group, and those that did, human nature isn’t changing because of a bit of adversity. Just look at how people in poor circumstances move round the globe to improve themselves and you will see that the biggest reason for slacking back is often too much comfort, not too many obstacles.
NRS said:
That's not good for society where the system is set up for growth, and we already have a falling number of workers to make money to pay for the massive block of older people's pensions and healthcare.
I won't be surprised to see some sort of change of service on the NHS at some point, as well as pensions. The costs are huge now and still have to go up a lot given the demographics.
True. There is an inevitable time bomb that comes with an aging population. I won't be surprised to see some sort of change of service on the NHS at some point, as well as pensions. The costs are huge now and still have to go up a lot given the demographics.
Certain pensions were very good for the minority of boomers that got them, now it is clear that policy is to try to get everyone in a position to support themselves as much as possible in old age. It’s a painful process but a necessary one; I am genX and have to go through it too.
The NHS is overdue a massive overhaul. Unfortunately it would be so difficult to bring in and cause so much chaos that I cannot imagine it ever happening in my lifetime so the only changes in service I can picture are continuing reductions.
Worth remembering though that things that would/did/do routinely kill boomers are routinely cured or managed for millennials. Life expectancy has plateaued and (ignoring any covid spikes) may stay that way tor a while but much of that can be put down to life choices, probably much more than healthcare.
GT03ROB said:
Prices are still super cheap compared to say the 80's.
Oh I agree...Covid and Brexit have hammered us as far as travel and holidays go. And I can see it getting gradually worse - "environmental" taxes are only going one way, and I suspect Sterling is only going the other....but the 80s was 40 years ago - nearly 2 generations. Boomers and the more-adventurous pre-war retirees were the first to benefit from cheap air travel (arguably Gen X and Boomers had it best, in terms of the disposable income to take advantage), so it's not a new benefit for Gen-Y / Millennials
Steve H said:
NRS said:
Almost all of those points have been replied to and answered.
- Tax rates: do you know a single person who had to pay that 83% tax rate? No one paid them pretty much.
Cherry picking again. The basic rate then was the same as the higher rate is now. Anyone on the higher rate now is earning more than 50% over the average wage but only paying the same as every boomer had to. - Tax rates: do you know a single person who had to pay that 83% tax rate? No one paid them pretty much.
VAT was also a lot lower at 15%.
And Council tax has pretty consistently risen above inflation...which for the last 15 years has exceeded wage growth.
Also, for the last decade or so fiscal drag has brought a LOT more people into the 40% tax band.
https://www.statista.com/chart/24330/uk-tax-burden...
https://www.ii.co.uk/analysis-commentary/uk-tax-bu...
I will note that none of this talks about who's paying the tax - suggestion that high-earners are paying more than they used to, proportionately - but this does rather suggest that (between income tax, VAT etc.) we're definitely being squeezed more by the government.
Steve H said:
Certain pensions were very good for the minority of boomers that got them, now it is clear that policy is to try to get everyone in a position to support themselves as much as possible in old age. It’s a painful process but a necessary one; I am genX and have to go through it too.
The NHS is overdue a massive overhaul. Unfortunately it would be so difficult to bring in and cause so much chaos that I cannot imagine it ever happening in my lifetime so the only changes in service I can picture are continuing reductions.
Worth remembering though that things that would/did/do routinely kill boomers are routinely cured or managed for millennials. Life expectancy has plateaued and (ignoring any covid spikes) may stay that way tor a while but much of that can be put down to life choices, probably much more than healthcare.
It was rather more than a minority. Up until Gordon Brown raided DB schemes for tax, pretty nearly every medium and large company in the UK had a final salary scheme. And (nearly?) all state employees still do.The NHS is overdue a massive overhaul. Unfortunately it would be so difficult to bring in and cause so much chaos that I cannot imagine it ever happening in my lifetime so the only changes in service I can picture are continuing reductions.
Worth remembering though that things that would/did/do routinely kill boomers are routinely cured or managed for millennials. Life expectancy has plateaued and (ignoring any covid spikes) may stay that way tor a while but much of that can be put down to life choices, probably much more than healthcare.
All this whingeing about boomers - yet they were the first generation who actually had to pay for their parents pensions and pay for their parents healthcare.
In this current era there are great claims that everyone is a "very special individual" with individual everything, and yet individuality has almost ceased to exist. Everyone wanders about magnetically attached to the same smartphones and gawping at the same social media. Nobody dares to have an opinion that varies from current fashion. Students don't want anyone to speak at the universities unless their views comply with current norms. A great mass of people all doing, thinking - and complaining about - the same things with or without any justification. Moaning that "it was all so much easier in the past" is just one part of that overall picture.
In this current era there are great claims that everyone is a "very special individual" with individual everything, and yet individuality has almost ceased to exist. Everyone wanders about magnetically attached to the same smartphones and gawping at the same social media. Nobody dares to have an opinion that varies from current fashion. Students don't want anyone to speak at the universities unless their views comply with current norms. A great mass of people all doing, thinking - and complaining about - the same things with or without any justification. Moaning that "it was all so much easier in the past" is just one part of that overall picture.
Slow.Patrol said:
Panamax said:
All this whingeing about boomers - yet they were the first generation who actually had to pay for their parents pensions and pay for their parents healthcare.
.
And don't forget that the Boomer's taxes paid for the debt caused by WW2. I think this was paid off in 2006. .
Slow.Patrol said:
Panamax said:
All this whingeing about boomers - yet they were the first generation who actually had to pay for their parents pensions and pay for their parents healthcare.
.
And don't forget that the Boomer's taxes paid for the debt caused by WW2. I think this was paid off in 2006. .
I suspect the north sea oil tax revenue paid off a fair chunk. Don't forget the UK was royally funked in the mid 1970s and that was prime working age for boomers.
Wasn't until the mid 1980s that things started to turnaround and what else happened then?
BandOfBrothers said:
Source?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_British_national_debt#:~:text=Some%20of%20these%20loans%20were,debt%20of%20%C2%A321%20billion."Some of these loans were only paid off in the early 21st century. On 31 December 2006, Britain made a final payments of about $83m (£45.5m) to the US and about $23.6m to Canada.[10]"
Slow.Patrol said:
Panamax said:
All this whingeing about boomers - yet they were the first generation who actually had to pay for their parents pensions and pay for their parents healthcare.
.
And don't forget that the Boomer's taxes paid for the debt caused by WW2. I think this was paid off in 2006. .
FamousPheasant said:
Slow.Patrol said:
Panamax said:
All this whingeing about boomers - yet they were the first generation who actually had to pay for their parents pensions and pay for their parents healthcare.
.
And don't forget that the Boomer's taxes paid for the debt caused by WW2. I think this was paid off in 2006. .
asfault said:
Pay some taxes to pay for a war that up until opwration sealion was cancled would have meant the invasion of the UK im fine with. Pay taxes for the cost of the gfc 2008 where I got none of the benefit pre 2008 ie houses at a reasonable price but all of the costs afterwards I feel a little more hard done by...
You are paying to have an economy full stop. Its avocado and flat white tax. Cheer up, if you view it through the lenses of what could have happened 19-20th Sept 2008, moaning about house prices would be the least of your problem. OoopsVoss said:
asfault said:
Pay some taxes to pay for a war that up until opwration sealion was cancled would have meant the invasion of the UK im fine with. Pay taxes for the cost of the gfc 2008 where I got none of the benefit pre 2008 ie houses at a reasonable price but all of the costs afterwards I feel a little more hard done by...
You are paying to have an economy full stop. Its avocado and flat white tax. Cheer up, if you view it through the lenses of what could have happened 19-20th Sept 2008, moaning about house prices would be the least of your problem. But it still stings knowing about it. Ignorance is almost bliss
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