The definitive low-energy GU10 lighting thread
Discussion
Unfortunately this post is not going to result in the definitive guide that the title might suggest. I can't comment on CFLs as it's not my area but I will comment on LED.
None of the above lamps in your post are a suitable alternative to the 50W GU10 I'm afraid. Truly like for like output direct 'bulb' replacements in LED don't exist. Yet anyway.
First of all, ignore the Wattage. WATTs are not the way to gauge the output of a LED lamp. It's all about the Lumens. A cheap 50W GU10 Halogen will have - at a minimum - around 500 Lumens so the LED lamps you posted claim less than half that. My one at the bottom is a light engine that we sell only if the client is absolutely dead set on keeping their fittings - say they had square chrome bezels that they were attached to for example. You can also see it has a much larger heat sink on the rear and it has a lumen output of about 320 IIRC. That's the nearest you get with a 'bulb' replacement. One must also be mighty careful of false claims by manufacturers. A lamp may well put out 200 lumens one inch off the face but what about at table top level where the light is actually needed? There is nothing regulating this in the industry at the moment which is a bloody nuisance and why so many people flogging cheap chinese tat can almost claim what they like on Lumen output. Finally, what colour temperature is the output claimed at? Many show their 'cool white' output figure without saying so so the colour you actually want, 'warm white,' will be a lower figure.
If you want a true alternative to Halogen then you really need to replace the entire fitting with something dedicated and it's all down to how you manage the heat of the LED. It's a complete misconception of many that LEDs run cold. Do they heck. Those clusters of 5mm LED domes in item 2 above certainly will be cool because they have no power. No power equals little light output! The powerful LED that we use can get very hot if unchecked. It's nothing like the heat of a halogen - more a pinprick in the LED itself so they need a heat sink to draw away and disperse that heat. To aim at a lifespan of 50,000 hours, you need to run the LED at 65 degrees or below. Ours run quite a bit below that but the fittings still get pretty warm to the touch.
Have a look at this lamp for example. It manages close to a 50W halogen in terms of Lumen output by virtue of its heat sinking ability. It carries a single 5W LED on board which I could quite easily fit onto a 'bulb' platform but, where would I put that large finned heatsink? The answer is I can't and therefore, that LED would get very hot, it's light output would be greatly reduced as would its longevity.
And therein lies the case against bulbs. You simply can't use the modern, powerful LEDs that have proper halogen-rivalling ability because you can't effectively heat-sink them as there isn't the surface area to allow it. Good quality LED equipment is more expensive because it's much more expensive to produce with the quality LED and heatsinking pieces.
Do NOT buy LED on the basis of WATTs.
Do NOT buy LED replacement 'bulbs.'
Do NOT buy LED on the basis of the lowest price. If it's cheap, it's cheap for a reason.
DO replace [u]all[/u] your lamps to get the best long term saving and fastest payback. I couldn't invent a business case for only doing 4 in the bathroom but if you have 30 across the house you can expect to save £550ish a year with my ZEP1.
DO your research and buy from a dedicated LED specialist (ahem), not what your mate the local wholesaler or told you about they are rarely expert.
DO ignore all prices on the ECOLED website! PHers pay trade and I have a lot of exceptionally satisfied PH customers who would recommend our products in a heartbeat and have done in these very pages.
If you are still awake I hope this was informative!
Oh, and to answer the below:
None of the above lamps in your post are a suitable alternative to the 50W GU10 I'm afraid. Truly like for like output direct 'bulb' replacements in LED don't exist. Yet anyway.
First of all, ignore the Wattage. WATTs are not the way to gauge the output of a LED lamp. It's all about the Lumens. A cheap 50W GU10 Halogen will have - at a minimum - around 500 Lumens so the LED lamps you posted claim less than half that. My one at the bottom is a light engine that we sell only if the client is absolutely dead set on keeping their fittings - say they had square chrome bezels that they were attached to for example. You can also see it has a much larger heat sink on the rear and it has a lumen output of about 320 IIRC. That's the nearest you get with a 'bulb' replacement. One must also be mighty careful of false claims by manufacturers. A lamp may well put out 200 lumens one inch off the face but what about at table top level where the light is actually needed? There is nothing regulating this in the industry at the moment which is a bloody nuisance and why so many people flogging cheap chinese tat can almost claim what they like on Lumen output. Finally, what colour temperature is the output claimed at? Many show their 'cool white' output figure without saying so so the colour you actually want, 'warm white,' will be a lower figure.
If you want a true alternative to Halogen then you really need to replace the entire fitting with something dedicated and it's all down to how you manage the heat of the LED. It's a complete misconception of many that LEDs run cold. Do they heck. Those clusters of 5mm LED domes in item 2 above certainly will be cool because they have no power. No power equals little light output! The powerful LED that we use can get very hot if unchecked. It's nothing like the heat of a halogen - more a pinprick in the LED itself so they need a heat sink to draw away and disperse that heat. To aim at a lifespan of 50,000 hours, you need to run the LED at 65 degrees or below. Ours run quite a bit below that but the fittings still get pretty warm to the touch.
Have a look at this lamp for example. It manages close to a 50W halogen in terms of Lumen output by virtue of its heat sinking ability. It carries a single 5W LED on board which I could quite easily fit onto a 'bulb' platform but, where would I put that large finned heatsink? The answer is I can't and therefore, that LED would get very hot, it's light output would be greatly reduced as would its longevity.
And therein lies the case against bulbs. You simply can't use the modern, powerful LEDs that have proper halogen-rivalling ability because you can't effectively heat-sink them as there isn't the surface area to allow it. Good quality LED equipment is more expensive because it's much more expensive to produce with the quality LED and heatsinking pieces.
Do NOT buy LED on the basis of WATTs.
Do NOT buy LED replacement 'bulbs.'
Do NOT buy LED on the basis of the lowest price. If it's cheap, it's cheap for a reason.
DO replace [u]all[/u] your lamps to get the best long term saving and fastest payback. I couldn't invent a business case for only doing 4 in the bathroom but if you have 30 across the house you can expect to save £550ish a year with my ZEP1.
DO your research and buy from a dedicated LED specialist (ahem), not what your mate the local wholesaler or told you about they are rarely expert.
DO ignore all prices on the ECOLED website! PHers pay trade and I have a lot of exceptionally satisfied PH customers who would recommend our products in a heartbeat and have done in these very pages.
If you are still awake I hope this was informative!
Oh, and to answer the below:
zcacogp said:
I guess my reluctance to identify him comes from the fact that the bulbs he sells seem to be such a poor bet (on paper)
We don't sell bulbs. Anywhere. For reasons outlined above.zcacogp said:
compared with the competition
That isn't the competition. zcacogp said:
The question is how much better they possibly can be for such a massively much higher price (and higher power consumption as well.)
Quite a lot actually! The ZEP1 represents a 90% energy and running cost saving over a 50W halogen, is completely fit and forget and carries a 5 year warranty that is underwritten by the LED manufacturer. It is also the best performing LED downlight in Europe in its price bracket by quite some margin. As indicated above, ignore web prices.Interested in this thread.
I've got 6 GUs in my kitchen that, as it's a dark room anyway, are on pretty much constantly.
I was tempted to pop into B&Q and buy some direct replacements at around £25 some time ago, but, given I was spending £150 on what to myself as a layman considered 'bulbs' it seemed ridiculous.
However, given the figures you're talking about on savings, it's something perhaps I should revisit.
I'm not an electrician though, and getting one in, then starts to seriously erode the payback time, so it needs careful consideration.
For a DIYer like myself, what route do you suggest? Can I simply pull out the fitting in the ceiling and 'clip' something in? Or do I have to empty the room above, pull up carpets etc?
Thanks?
I've got 6 GUs in my kitchen that, as it's a dark room anyway, are on pretty much constantly.
I was tempted to pop into B&Q and buy some direct replacements at around £25 some time ago, but, given I was spending £150 on what to myself as a layman considered 'bulbs' it seemed ridiculous.
However, given the figures you're talking about on savings, it's something perhaps I should revisit.
I'm not an electrician though, and getting one in, then starts to seriously erode the payback time, so it needs careful consideration.
For a DIYer like myself, what route do you suggest? Can I simply pull out the fitting in the ceiling and 'clip' something in? Or do I have to empty the room above, pull up carpets etc?
Thanks?
E36GUY said:
I don't know if you are asking me but it's pretty simple. But I can't unfortunately tell you how to do it as it's all supposed to be installed by a professional.
ok.So.
When I get a professional to install my LEDs, does he simply take a ZEP1, take out my existing fitting, and connect it up?
I need it signed off by a sparky anyway, as it's part of work that will come under building regs unfortunately.
Just want to know how easy it is, and if it will cost me much?
dirty boy said:
E36GUY said:
I don't know if you are asking me but it's pretty simple. But I can't unfortunately tell you how to do it as it's all supposed to be installed by a professional.
ok.So.
When I get a professional to install my LEDs, does he simply take a ZEP1, take out my existing fitting, and connect it up?
I need it signed off by a sparky anyway, as it's part of work that will come under building regs unfortunately.
Just want to know how easy it is, and if it will cost me much?
13w CFL GU10's can be had for about a fiver and are fine if you can live with the warm up times. Note they come in warm and cold white colours, warm is best for general interior use. worst case they'll not cost too much, save you some money for a couple of years and by then there may be a decent LED direct fit replacement.
hairyben said:
13w CFL GU10's can be had for about a fiver and are fine if you can live with the warm up times. Note they come in warm and cold white colours, warm is best for general interior use. worst case they'll not cost too much, save you some money for a couple of years and by then there may be a decent LED direct fit replacement.
Look at my pics, those cheaper than cheap ones I have are too bright to look at from switch on!Another vote for ZEP1's here.
Fitted four to replace a four GU10 lamp bar in a small kitchen (2.5 x 2.8 roughly). Pretty much as bright, very slightly cooler feel to the light but we stopped noticing that after a week or so. Totally unobtrusive and in my mind a much better spread of light due to the reflector and opaque glass.
So that’s 200w down to 20w. The ZEPS are on individual transformers, so dimmable. Yes, they are pricier but do the job very well and were perfect for our new kitchen.
We tried all manner of replacement LED bulbs from no name brands to Phillips and the like, all were disappointing and at best only just matched the output of a 35w GU10, but with a tighter beam.
I'd find uses for the Zep's in other rooms if I didn't have to contend with making holes in lath and plaster ceilings.
Fitted four to replace a four GU10 lamp bar in a small kitchen (2.5 x 2.8 roughly). Pretty much as bright, very slightly cooler feel to the light but we stopped noticing that after a week or so. Totally unobtrusive and in my mind a much better spread of light due to the reflector and opaque glass.
So that’s 200w down to 20w. The ZEPS are on individual transformers, so dimmable. Yes, they are pricier but do the job very well and were perfect for our new kitchen.
We tried all manner of replacement LED bulbs from no name brands to Phillips and the like, all were disappointing and at best only just matched the output of a 35w GU10, but with a tighter beam.
I'd find uses for the Zep's in other rooms if I didn't have to contend with making holes in lath and plaster ceilings.
E36GUY,
Thanks for your reply. I was hoping you would see this thread. Thanks for not getting the wrong end of the stick from my post; it wasn't intended to be critical of you, but I am aware it could have been read as such.
The ZEP1 seems to be a monster. That's a chunky 'ol heatsink on the back of it (I've seen cylinder heads with smaller fins!) How big is it, and how big a cut-out does it need in the ceiling? Do you need to put fire hoods behind them? And how is the wire terminated - I notice that dirty boy has already asked about fitting, but I presume the feed to it is a pretty regular 240v thing? Do I need a transformer for it (they won't be on a dimmer circuit)?
And, OK then, can you PM me some prices? For 6, initially ... in fact, I'll PM you to get the conversation going.
Thanks again for your input on this thread.
Oli.
Thanks for your reply. I was hoping you would see this thread. Thanks for not getting the wrong end of the stick from my post; it wasn't intended to be critical of you, but I am aware it could have been read as such.
The ZEP1 seems to be a monster. That's a chunky 'ol heatsink on the back of it (I've seen cylinder heads with smaller fins!) How big is it, and how big a cut-out does it need in the ceiling? Do you need to put fire hoods behind them? And how is the wire terminated - I notice that dirty boy has already asked about fitting, but I presume the feed to it is a pretty regular 240v thing? Do I need a transformer for it (they won't be on a dimmer circuit)?
And, OK then, can you PM me some prices? For 6, initially ... in fact, I'll PM you to get the conversation going.
Thanks again for your input on this thread.
Oli.
zcacogp said:
E36GUY,
Thanks for your reply. I was hoping you would see this thread. Thanks for not getting the wrong end of the stick from my post; it wasn't intended to be critical of you, but I am aware it could have been read as such.
The ZEP1 seems to be a monster. That's a chunky 'ol heatsink on the back of it (I've seen cylinder heads with smaller fins!) How big is it, and how big a cut-out does it need in the ceiling? Do you need to put fire hoods behind them? And how is the wire terminated - I notice that dirty boy has already asked about fitting, but I presume the feed to it is a pretty regular 240v thing? Do I need a transformer for it (they won't be on a dimmer circuit)?
And, OK then, can you PM me some prices? For 6, initially ... in fact, I'll PM you to get the conversation going.
Thanks again for your input on this thread.
Oli.
Thanks Oli. Have emailed you back.Thanks for your reply. I was hoping you would see this thread. Thanks for not getting the wrong end of the stick from my post; it wasn't intended to be critical of you, but I am aware it could have been read as such.
The ZEP1 seems to be a monster. That's a chunky 'ol heatsink on the back of it (I've seen cylinder heads with smaller fins!) How big is it, and how big a cut-out does it need in the ceiling? Do you need to put fire hoods behind them? And how is the wire terminated - I notice that dirty boy has already asked about fitting, but I presume the feed to it is a pretty regular 240v thing? Do I need a transformer for it (they won't be on a dimmer circuit)?
And, OK then, can you PM me some prices? For 6, initially ... in fact, I'll PM you to get the conversation going.
Thanks again for your input on this thread.
Oli.
Dimensions are
Cut out: 84mm.
Bezel outer diameter: 96mm
Depth required: 90mm
No you don't need a hood over them but don't cover the back with insulation. Leave at least the volume of the lamp of clear air around it.
Oli,
I've just recently done what you want to do.
I bought 5 of these to replace 2 in a bathroom and 3 on a landing. All 5 bulbs previously were GU10 50W bulbs.
I went for these: http://gbbulbs.co.uk/acatalog/Philips_MASTER_LED_G..._50w2700K_40_.html
They are Philips GU10 "Master LED" - can't remember the beam angle, 40 I think. I can check.
I took advice from a friend of the family who is an electrician, and fits out shops, pubs, hispitals etc.
Not the cheapest - and dimmable, which I don't need them to be - but build quality is first class, and I won't ever have to replace them again. Not only that, they are an exact match to an existing 50W bulb.
HTH
I've just recently done what you want to do.
I bought 5 of these to replace 2 in a bathroom and 3 on a landing. All 5 bulbs previously were GU10 50W bulbs.
I went for these: http://gbbulbs.co.uk/acatalog/Philips_MASTER_LED_G..._50w2700K_40_.html
They are Philips GU10 "Master LED" - can't remember the beam angle, 40 I think. I can check.
I took advice from a friend of the family who is an electrician, and fits out shops, pubs, hispitals etc.
Not the cheapest - and dimmable, which I don't need them to be - but build quality is first class, and I won't ever have to replace them again. Not only that, they are an exact match to an existing 50W bulb.
HTH
Noonehere said:
Another vote for ZEP1's here.
And here. We were doing a bathroom refurb so I contacted Guy as I remembered him from PH.The advice he gave was spot on, no-nonsense and straightforward and the price we ended up paying were described by the electrician as 'unbelievable' (in a good way).
Will definitely be fitting more when we (eventually) get round to refurbing the kitchen.
GregE240 said:
Oli,
I've just recently done what you want to do.
I bought 5 of these to replace 2 in a bathroom and 3 on a landing. All 5 bulbs previously were GU10 50W bulbs.
I went for these: http://gbbulbs.co.uk/acatalog/Philips_MASTER_LED_G..._50w2700K_40_.html
They are Philips GU10 "Master LED" - can't remember the beam angle, 40 I think. I can check.
I took advice from a friend of the family who is an electrician, and fits out shops, pubs, hispitals etc.
Not the cheapest - and dimmable, which I don't need them to be - but build quality is first class, and I won't ever have to replace them again. Not only that, they are an exact match to an existing 50W bulb.
HTH
~£75 each! blimeyI've just recently done what you want to do.
I bought 5 of these to replace 2 in a bathroom and 3 on a landing. All 5 bulbs previously were GU10 50W bulbs.
I went for these: http://gbbulbs.co.uk/acatalog/Philips_MASTER_LED_G..._50w2700K_40_.html
They are Philips GU10 "Master LED" - can't remember the beam angle, 40 I think. I can check.
I took advice from a friend of the family who is an electrician, and fits out shops, pubs, hispitals etc.
Not the cheapest - and dimmable, which I don't need them to be - but build quality is first class, and I won't ever have to replace them again. Not only that, they are an exact match to an existing 50W bulb.
HTH
Payback would take a while.
GregE240 said:
They are Philips GU10 "Master LED"......
.....they are an exact match to an existing 50W bulb.
Sorry, no they are not. No great surprise the Lumen output is not shown on the GB Bulbs website but anyway, the Master Series is about 300LM max (likely less at 2700k) from the 7W version which is only a smidgen over half the equivalent 50W GU10 halogen (500+) and a third of a low voltage MR16 halogen (7-800). Lumen figure I quote is taken directly from the Philips website so it's their own words......they are an exact match to an existing 50W bulb.
I have also heard from wholesale clients that they are prone to failure because the dimmable transformer is built into the end cap rather than a separate so look at it logically. It's in the middle of the heatsink and thus overheats. This is only what I have heard however and I have no actual evidence to back that up.
dirty boy said:
GregE240 said:
Oli,
I've just recently done what you want to do.
I bought 5 of these to replace 2 in a bathroom and 3 on a landing. All 5 bulbs previously were GU10 50W bulbs.
I went for these: http://gbbulbs.co.uk/acatalog/Philips_MASTER_LED_G..._50w2700K_40_.html
They are Philips GU10 "Master LED" - can't remember the beam angle, 40 I think. I can check.
I took advice from a friend of the family who is an electrician, and fits out shops, pubs, hispitals etc.
Not the cheapest - and dimmable, which I don't need them to be - but build quality is first class, and I won't ever have to replace them again. Not only that, they are an exact match to an existing 50W bulb.
HTH
~£75 each! blimeyI've just recently done what you want to do.
I bought 5 of these to replace 2 in a bathroom and 3 on a landing. All 5 bulbs previously were GU10 50W bulbs.
I went for these: http://gbbulbs.co.uk/acatalog/Philips_MASTER_LED_G..._50w2700K_40_.html
They are Philips GU10 "Master LED" - can't remember the beam angle, 40 I think. I can check.
I took advice from a friend of the family who is an electrician, and fits out shops, pubs, hispitals etc.
Not the cheapest - and dimmable, which I don't need them to be - but build quality is first class, and I won't ever have to replace them again. Not only that, they are an exact match to an existing 50W bulb.
HTH
Payback would take a while.
E36GUY said:
GregE240 said:
They are Philips GU10 "Master LED"......
.....they are an exact match to an existing 50W bulb.
Sorry, no they are not. No great surprise the Lumen output is not shown on the GB Bulbs website but anyway, the Master Series is about 300LM max (likely less at 2700k) from the 7W version which is only a smidgen over half the equivalent 50W GU10 halogen (500+) and a third of a low voltage MR16 halogen (7-800). Lumen figure I quote is taken directly from the Philips website so it's their own words......they are an exact match to an existing 50W bulb.
I have also heard from wholesale clients that they are prone to failure because the dimmable transformer is built into the end cap rather than a separate so look at it logically. It's in the middle of the heatsink and thus overheats. This is only what I have heard however and I have no actual evidence to back that up.
Your comment about premature failure is based purely on conjecture and not actual experience. My electrician has not had a single one of these fail, hence why they fit them.
Last time this topic came up, I linked to these:
http://www.diamondled.co.uk/
And E36GUY promptly told me they are crap (or words to that effect)
.
Now, I don't know if they're good or not, but we have 30 or so in our offices, all daylight balanced (which might have been a mistake, it's a bit harsh), and I also have 11 in my kitchen/utility (warm tones), spaced at roughly 1 metre centres.
In the kitchen I replaced 3 Halogen GU10's with 5 of those LED's, and am happy with the result. Whether there'd be a back to back difference, I'm not sure. I suppose I could stick in 5 halogens and see, but I'm not that excited to know. I recall that the beam is tighter, and fall off of the light is sharper than the halogens.
However, the result is a nice, sparkly, warm light that we are pleased with.
Crap they may be, but they seem ok so far.
Having said that, we've just bought a new house, and will be looking to do a full re-wire to replace the 50's circuits and light fittings, so E36GUY, I might give you a shout soon for some suggestions, that's if you don't mind?
http://www.diamondled.co.uk/
And E36GUY promptly told me they are crap (or words to that effect)
.Now, I don't know if they're good or not, but we have 30 or so in our offices, all daylight balanced (which might have been a mistake, it's a bit harsh), and I also have 11 in my kitchen/utility (warm tones), spaced at roughly 1 metre centres.
In the kitchen I replaced 3 Halogen GU10's with 5 of those LED's, and am happy with the result. Whether there'd be a back to back difference, I'm not sure. I suppose I could stick in 5 halogens and see, but I'm not that excited to know. I recall that the beam is tighter, and fall off of the light is sharper than the halogens.
However, the result is a nice, sparkly, warm light that we are pleased with.
Crap they may be, but they seem ok so far.
Having said that, we've just bought a new house, and will be looking to do a full re-wire to replace the 50's circuits and light fittings, so E36GUY, I might give you a shout soon for some suggestions, that's if you don't mind?
Don't buy the Megaman 11W.
I bought 14 of these from B&Q, at £10ish each. After circa 14 months the first one failed. I took it out and the plastic at the base had cracked. I thought it was a random failure and took it back, and got it replaced. The second went a couple of weeks later. Same crack at the base. I am guessing from the plastic not being able to withstand the heat cycles. Before going back a second time I pull them all out, and each of the 14 had the same crack in the base, some with moisture inside.
B&Q tried to abscond responsibility until I showed them the receipts for the two different B&Q fittings they were in.
In short, don't buy these, they run too hot.
Also been burnt, though sadly not physically from LED GU10. Got some 30 and even 60 led bulbs - ebay special. The brightness was poor to start with, and I noticed after 6 months the brightness literally halved from new - tested against an unused bulb. Two 60 LED GU10 provide a 'highlight' for the hallway - thats it.
I bought 14 of these from B&Q, at £10ish each. After circa 14 months the first one failed. I took it out and the plastic at the base had cracked. I thought it was a random failure and took it back, and got it replaced. The second went a couple of weeks later. Same crack at the base. I am guessing from the plastic not being able to withstand the heat cycles. Before going back a second time I pull them all out, and each of the 14 had the same crack in the base, some with moisture inside.
B&Q tried to abscond responsibility until I showed them the receipts for the two different B&Q fittings they were in.
In short, don't buy these, they run too hot.
Also been burnt, though sadly not physically from LED GU10. Got some 30 and even 60 led bulbs - ebay special. The brightness was poor to start with, and I noticed after 6 months the brightness literally halved from new - tested against an unused bulb. Two 60 LED GU10 provide a 'highlight' for the hallway - thats it.
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