ABS Locks - Avocet - worth it?

[Rosscow]

Cyberprog said:

I've never liked thumb turns - all too easy for a window to be smashed and someone to let themselves in by reaching round and undoing the turn, or for someone to gain access through another part of the property and to have an easy exit route.

Generally speaking I think this is a moot point.

If they're going to smash a window, then they'll get in or out however they like anyway.

I like thumb turns on main exit doors as it's an easy means of escape for those inside, in the event of a fire for example.

Even on French doors, if you have a thumbturn and the burglar is happy to smash the glass to open the door via the thumbturn, then they may as well walk through the glass that they've just smashed!

Also, if you don't have a thumbturn on a Euro cylinder a lot of people generally get in the habit of leaving a key in it on the inside anyway.

[Rosscow]

Out of interest, we are now fitting the Brisant Ultion cylinders as standard. I'm getting them for £32.00 + VAT per cylinder, including keyed alike cylinders.

They're a very nice cylinder and I'll probably change my front door Avocet to one of these.

[Muncher]

Rosscow said:

Out of interest, we are now fitting the Brisant Ultion cylinders as standard. I'm getting them for £32.00 + VAT per cylinder, including keyed alike cylinders.

They're a very nice cylinder and I'll probably change my front door Avocet to one of these.

Is that including thumb turns? Do you mind saying where from?

[sak83]

We have been using a key to double lock the door from the inside. But it becomes a pain to unlock it if you get a delivery or someone turns up at the door unexpectedly. There's usual a bit of frantic running around to get the key so we can unlock the door. We usually have our keys upstairs as we have had a burglary in the past where our car was stolen because the keys were left near the entrance area. When we were burgled we had not double locked the door and they were easily able to get in by putting something through the letterbox and levering the handle. Since then we always double lock the door but unlocking it becomes tedious

Leaving the key in from the inside is not convenient either as then a key cannot be used from the outside and its quite easy to lock yourself out that way too.

[mr_fibuli]

Not seen them mentioned on this thread, but I ended up with Abus 3* locks.

The keys look pretty normal and easy to copy, but supposedly you can only get replacements from Abus.

The cylinders also allow you to open the lock if there is a key in the other side, though the mechanism for this is a bit strange, you have to push the key in a bit until it clicks, and sometimes you seem to need 2 full turns of the key to lock or unlock.

[Rosscow]

Muncher said:

Rosscow said:

Out of interest, we are now fitting the Brisant Ultion cylinders as standard. I'm getting them for £32.00 + VAT per cylinder, including keyed alike cylinders.

They're a very nice cylinder and I'll probably change my front door Avocet to one of these.

Is that including thumb turns? Do you mind saying where from?

We use our local locksmiths who are, obviously, Brisant stockists. We do get a lot from them though so get a decent discount.

[gareth_r]

Rosscow said:

gareth_r said:

Rosscow said:

sak83 said:

I was about to buy a avocet ABS thumb turn lock but there is an advisory that you can be locked out if you dont return the thumb turn to its original position. Are there any other thumb turn locks that don't have this issue?

Yes, this is a problem. We've got this cylinder and have locked ourselves out twice in 6 months

Is that a problem if you have to lock the door with the key?

Yes, if the thumbturn isn't in the correct position you won't be able to use the key at all, to lock the door or unlock the door.

That would be OK, then. You could just open the door, put the thumbturn in the correct position, then lock the door with the key.

Thanks.

[7heavensoon]

We've got ABS Avocets on all exterior doors. I bought the thumbturn one for the front door - it's as secure as all the others, as we always leave a key in them for convenience...

I can't see how you can lock yourself out - if the thumbturn isn't in the correct position, then you can't lock the door from the outside. It would be possible to be locked out if someone moved the thumbturn to the 'wrong' position from the inside I guess. That could be a useful feature if you wanted to keep someone that had a key out though!

[Rosscow]

7heavensoon said:

We've got ABS Avocets on all exterior doors. I bought the thumbturn one for the front door - it's as secure as all the others, as we always leave a key in them for convenience...

I can't see how you can lock yourself out - if the thumbturn isn't in the correct position, then you can't lock the door from the outside. It would be possible to be locked out if someone moved the thumbturn to the 'wrong' position from the inside I guess. That could be a useful feature if you wanted to keep someone that had a key out though!

Sounds like you've got a bog standard lever-lever multipoint lock. You need to shut the door, lift the lever and then turn the key to lock it, correct?

If people have a split spindle arrangement, then it acts like a Yale lock so that you can push the door shuts and it is secure on the latch only (shoot bolts have to be thrown manually to achieve full security) and nobody can get in from the outside unless they have a key (like a standard Yale night latch).

We have an auto locking multipoint lock, with a euro cylinder in the position you'd normally find a Yale lock (about 5' up). Our door does not have any handles.
When we shut our door, the lock automatically throws shoot bolts top and bottom, and you can then throw the centre deadbolt with the key. However, to get in you need to use the key to work the latch and open the door.

Edited by Rosscow on Wednesday 25th November 20:04

[7heavensoon]

Rosscow said:

7heavensoon said:

We've got ABS Avocets on all exterior doors. I bought the thumbturn one for the front door - it's as secure as all the others, as we always leave a key in them for convenience...

I can't see how you can lock yourself out - if the thumbturn isn't in the correct position, then you can't lock the door from the outside. It would be possible to be locked out if someone moved the thumbturn to the 'wrong' position from the inside I guess. That could be a useful feature if you wanted to keep someone that had a key out though!

Sounds like you've got a big standard lever-lever multipoint lock. You need to shut the door, lift the lever and then turn the key to lock it, correct?

If people have a split spindle arrangement, then it acts like a Yale lock so that you can push the door shut and nobody can get in from the outside unless they have a key (like a standard Yale night latch).

We have an auto locking multipoint lock, with a euro cylinder in the position you'd normally find a Yale lock (about 5' up). Our door does not have any handles.
When we shut or door, the lock automatically throws shoot bolts top and bottom, and you can then throw the centre deadbolt with the key. However, to get in you need to use the key to work the latch and open the door.

Ah... Yes, we've got the standard multipoint lock arrangement. I can see how with a split type the thumbturn could be a problem now!

[SVS]

mr_fibuli said:

Not seen them mentioned on this thread, but I ended up with Abus 3* locks.

The keys look pretty normal and easy to copy, but supposedly you can only get replacements from Abus.

Hi mr_fibuli, Abus 3* looks like a decent choice, but you've been lied to about its key security:

LockAndKey.co.uk said:

Things we don't like: Open profile keys - anyone can copy them without your knowledge

If key security is important, then your choice is down to Kaba pExtra Guard or one of the Evva 3* range These have patent protected key blanks, preventing illegal key copying. The Kaba and Evva have better key security (grade 6) than Avocet ABS (only grade 5).

I reckon Kaba and Evva will be higher quality, better locks than Avocet too Evva's made by magic elves at their own factory in Austria. Whereas Avocet has their cylinders made by a third party in Taiwan.

7heavensoon said:

We've got ABS Avocets on all exterior doors. I bought the thumbturn one for the front door - it's as secure as all the others, as we always leave a key in them for convenience...

Hi 7heavensoon, your Avocet ABS cylinders can be snapped if you leave the key in them. If the key's left in the lock, the system for locking the cam doesn't work

Edited by SVS on Monday 21st December 06:08

[eltawater]

I finally stopped procrastinating having taken on board lots of the advice from this thread and fitted a Mila ProSecure PAS 24 handle:

http://security-hardware.co.uk/upvc-door-handles/9...

with an ABS avocet:

http://www.lockandkey.co.uk/p/abs-anti-snap-euro-c...


I'm really impressed by the quality of both of these products. The handle is really solid and heavy and the lock cylinder was really simple to replace.

I settled on the Avocet in the end as I still couldn't find anywhere willing to sell me an Ultion without a bit of faffing, whereas the Avocet in the correct size was available directly online from Lock and Key. I figured that anyone who is determined to get in will do so, the trick being to make yourself less of an appealing target compared to another with a snap vulnerable lock.

I do really like the key design which works both ways up, and we don't leave the key in on the inside anyway as it's just inviting someone to reach through the letterbox to turn it.

[Mr71c]

It seems as if people are just relying on an anti snap anti bump cylinder for their house security, as I have posted in the past you should have both a security cylinder and a security handle on all your doors why rely on a standard handle with a few millimetres hanging out as it is still not safe



As you can see the standard handle fitted on your doors are hollow and very thin that can be easily broken with mole grips...

Then you can see how secure a mila pro handle is and how much protection you have around the cylinder, you must be mental fitting an expensive cylinder that will snap off when attacked and leaving you an expensive locksmith bill, allowing your lock to be the final deterrent is the better option rather than the first, please fit a security handle with your cylinder as it will deter a criminal from attacking your property

Edited by Mr71c on Sunday 20th December 20:01

Edited by Mr71c on Monday 4th January 21:01

Edited by Mr71c on Monday 4th January 21:03

Edited by Mr71c on Monday 4th January 21:05

[Mr71c]

One thing to remember with your dimple lock is to clean out the dimples in your key once a week so as to stop a build up of dirt in the dimple as this will then be transfered to the pins in your lock and bunging up the pins, this happened to me when I used to have a multi lock garrison and had to call out a locksmith

eltawater said:

I finally stopped procrastinating having taken on board lots of the advice from this thread and fitted a Mila ProSecure PAS 24 handle:

http://security-hardware.co.uk/upvc-door-handles/9...

with an ABS avocet:

http://www.lockandkey.co.uk/p/abs-anti-snap-euro-c...


I'm really impressed by the quality of both of these products. The handle is really solid and heavy and the lock cylinder was really simple to replace.

I settled on the Avocet in the end as I still couldn't find anywhere willing to sell me an Ultion without a bit of faffing, whereas the Avocet in the correct size was available directly online from Lock and Key. I figured that anyone who is determined to get in will do so, the trick being to make yourself less of an appealing target compared to another with a snap vulnerable lock.

I do really like the key design which works both ways up, and we don't leave the key in on the inside anyway as it's just inviting someone to reach through the letterbox to turn it.

[Mr71c]

Definitely agree with you svs about the lock lube as most people think once the cylinder is fitted that it will continue to work without any further attention, my evva eps cylinders were fitted just before christmas last year and are due a squirt of graphite soon.

[SVS]

Do you like graphite? I found it worked for a short while, then turned to gunk as soon as any moisture or rain got in, making things worse than before. Instead, I much prefer a PFTE dry lube.

[Poolsharks1]

Guys if your still in the market for a lock the cisa astrals are just as good in my opinion and a good bit cheaper than the avocet. They have a metal bar that runs the full lenght of the bar so there is no snapping them, even if the lock is sticking out the handles by quite a bit. They also come with laser cut keys so there is no chance of any wannabe burglar picking or bumping these locks etc

[Mr71c]

Poolsharks1 said:

Guys if your still in the market for a lock the cisa astrals are just as good in my opinion and a good bit cheaper than the avocet. They have a metal bar that runs the full lenght of the bar so there is no snapping them, even if the lock is sticking out the handles by quite a bit. They also come with laser cut keys so there is no chance of any wannabe burglar picking or bumping these locks etc

I had a good look at the astral and came across a few pictures online showing a few that were snapped so thought it best to buy the mul t lock 7 pin garrison break secure it was a very secure lock and can still be opened from the outside after the cylinder as been snapped the only problem I had with it was dirt bunging up the pins resulting in a locksmith call out. Since moving to a new house I had a good look about and chatted to some lock pickers on you tube, considering I could not afford two abloy protec 2 cylinders I decided to go with the evva eps modular cylinder that is a 1 star cylinder but when used with a 2 star security handle becomes 3 star security and never had any problems with the lock so far

[Mr71c]

SVS said:

Do you like graphite? I found it worked for a short while, then turned to gunk as soon as any moisture or rain got in, making things worse than before. Instead, I much prefer a PFTE dry lube.

Never tried the PFTE dry lube and the locksmith told me to use nothing but graphite powder however after a little research it seems that quite a few people are saying the same as you about the caking effect thanks for the tip, think I will be trying the PFTE dry lube from now on

[dazwalsh]

Anyone heard anything bad about the yale superior locks? they seem to be down the bottom end of the price scale and recently had two doors fitted with those in.

If they are vulnerable i will swap them out for mul-t-lock garrisons but if not will leave them in.