ABS Locks - Avocet - worth it?

[Mr71c]

dazwalsh said:

Anyone heard anything bad about the yale superior locks? they seem to be down the bottom end of the price scale and recently had two doors fitted with those in.

If they are vulnerable i will swap them out for mul-t-lock garrisons but if not will leave them in.

The Yale superior is a pretty good lock however I have to agree with svs and fit a more superior lock pardon the pun lol, however saying that the Yale superior as the same technology as the Mul t lock as both companies are owned by Assa Abloy though I would say the Mul t lock XP will be a better standard of lock and I use to own the Mul t lock break secure the predecessor to the new XP I can tell you that it is a very good lock though if it was me buying a new anti snap cylinder I would go for the new Evva EPS 3 star break secure cylinder as I favour these locks and know them to be very good, you must also think about key control and making sure your key can not be coppied without your consent, most security locks now come with a key cutting security card so please keep that in mind also

[dazwalsh]

Mr71c said:

The Yale superior is a pretty good lock however I have to agree with svs and fit a more superior lock pardon the pun lol, however saying that the Yale superior as the same technology as the Mul t lock as both companies are owned by Assa Abloy though I would say the Mul t lock XP will be a better standard of lock and I use to own the Mul t lock break secure the predecessor to the new XP I can tell you that it is a very good lock though if it was me buying a new anti snap cylinder I would go for the new Evva EPS 3 star break secure cylinder as I favour these locks and know them to be very good, you must also think about key control and making sure your key can not be coppied without your consent, most security locks now come with a key cutting security card so please keep that in mind also

Yeah i have been using mul-t-lock garrisons on my rentals as they have cards to cut new keys, thereby stopping tenants from cutting their own keys. I cycle through spare locks when a tenant leaves but they end up costing near on £75-80 for one house whereas the Yale superior also have cutting cards and cost half that with two locks keyed alike. If they are comparable security wise i might make the switch for any new locks i purchase.

Im also in the process of changing a lot of the handles to hoppe PAS24 handles, just an extra layer of security against mr knobhead with mole grips. 2013 i had 3 properties broke into so went a bit crazy with the security upgrades

[Mr71c]

dazwalsh said:

Yeah i have been using mul-t-lock garrisons on my rentals as they have cards to cut new keys, thereby stopping tenants from cutting their own keys. I cycle through spare locks when a tenant leaves but they end up costing near on £75-80 for one house whereas the Yale superior also have cutting cards and cost half that with two locks keyed alike. If they are comparable security wise i might make the switch for any new locks i purchase.

Im also in the process of changing a lot of the handles to hoppe PAS24 handles, just an extra layer of security against mr knobhead with mole grips. 2013 i had 3 properties broke into so went a bit crazy with the security upgrades

I am happy to hear you are using security handles on your properties and decent locks not a lot of landlords would do that so thumbs up to you, it depends on how secure you want your properties as a local locksmith told me he can and as cut Garrison keys without the card but could not do it with higher security Mul t locks such as the Interactive or MT5 range but they are not anti snap or break secure. Not sure if they can do it for the new XP as the key seems the same as the old Garrison and that was an other reason I changed my locks over to Evva EPS cylinders, it did cost me £100 for two cylinders both keyed alike and the front one can be opened from the outside with a key whilst another key is in the lock on the inside over ride I believe they call it. just been looking at the ABUS Pfaffenhain Euro Double Cylinder they too look very secure and being German will be built very well also

[Mr71c]

SVS said:

Those key cards seem more about convenience than key security: you can still get keys cut without the card.

For key security, I think you need patent protection vs copying. Out of the current anti-snap cylinders, only Kaba's pExtra Guard and Evva's new 3-star cylinders are protected against keys being copied without your knowledge.

My Evva EPS 1 star cylinder as the key cutting number on my key however I filed it off you still need the number to get the cuts right but mostly for the dimples on the side I believe so still a secure option

[Jonesy23]

Re. Ultion cylinders, Brisant seem to be keeping a tight hold of their resellers hence lack of published prices/online sales. Seems a bit off to me, I'm sure they'd sell more if they were more retail friendly with their policies but maybe they're afraid of prices coming under pressure.


Anyway, pricing. The costs I've been quoted were:


Standard cylinder (all sizes) £33.50 trade. +£6 on this for retail buyers. Assume a thumb-turn or half cylinder will be a little different.
Key-alike +£6 per cylinder (trade or retail)
Extra keys £6 each (trade or retail)

3 keys included per cylinder, or per lock set if buying key-alike.

All prices quoted include VAT, exclude delivery.

[Jonesy23]

Just trying to work something out here...

Have been having a look at some proper 'destructive entry' locksmith lock snapper bars to see how some of the 'good' cylinders dealt with them. The tool in question was ~£40 and requires proper (handle off) access to the cylinder to work so a reinforced handle will at least provide some resistance.

Anyway, for the cylinders with only a partial sacrificial section/no central 'core' it could grab enough of the cylinder to snap off at the bolt & it was really obvious why they snapped. But one of the locks shown was an Avocet ABS (not sure which generation) snapped at the molybdenum core at the retaining bolt - so what I'm not sure is how you'd get any sort of grip to snap it? I can see how the break could be faked but if it really did snap that way for real then the Ultion could have the same issue being the same material & dimensions at that point.

The only thing I can think of right now is that the bar is hammered in to crush the lock mechanism and expose the stub of the cylinder. In which case the defence is a combination of a handle that's difficult to get around, and after that a bit of steel plate inside the door in front of the lock mech to limit the final access to the cylinder & lock mech.


(It's stuff like this that keeps the Ingersoll D20 on my front door not a fragile euro cylinder)

[Jonesy23]

I was referring to snapper bars. Specifically the CB Super Snapper Bar which has an Avocet ABS in the advert picture as one of the snapped locks.

There may be videos but I just looked at the photos.

Going back to the actual locks there seems to be more than one generation of the Ultion. Key differences are the markings (stars/no stars on the front face, rating engravings on the sides or not) the type of circlips in the central core (new ones 90+% solid vs maybe 70-ish ie harder to remove) and some construction differences in the front sacrificial bit around the antidrill pins and the support 'rod' in the base. Nothing radical but there seems to be a mix of versions out there depending on age of stock.

[daveenty]

eltawater said:

I finally stopped procrastinating having taken on board lots of the advice from this thread and fitted a Mila ProSecure PAS 24 handle:

http://security-hardware.co.uk/upvc-door-handles/9...

with an ABS avocet:

http://www.lockandkey.co.uk/p/abs-anti-snap-euro-c...


I'm really impressed by the quality of both of these products. The handle is really solid and heavy and the lock cylinder was really simple to replace.

I settled on the Avocet in the end as I still couldn't find anywhere willing to sell me an Ultion without a bit of faffing, whereas the Avocet in the correct size was available directly online from Lock and Key. I figured that anyone who is determined to get in will do so, the trick being to make yourself less of an appealing target compared to another with a snap vulnerable lock.

I do really like the key design which works both ways up, and we don't leave the key in on the inside anyway as it's just inviting someone to reach through the letterbox to turn it.

I've had the Avocet anti snap cylinders for a while now, basically since reading about them in this thread. However, due to the above and several other posts, I have also invested in the same handles as Mr eltawater mentions. Ordered Saturday came today. Very impressive bit of kit, well packed and came with 2 square bars per kit, short and long, and two different screw lengths as well. Unfortunately, the short screws were too short and the long ones, when tightened, left the handle quite loose as they were a bit too long.

No problem really, trimmed the screws down by around 5mm and everything is snug, though I've noticed that the new front door handle is pretty stiff if I tighten the top screw all the way home. Leave it with a bit of slack (just about gripping) and it's fine. No problem with the back door just this one. Something I've done wrong, or just one of those things?

[Craikeybaby]

I've currently got keyed alike ABS Avocet cylinders on my back doors and garage, and am getting a new front door fitted this month.

The new door comes with an Ultion cylinder, which is more secure. I'm trying to work out the if I should swap that to another keyed alike ABS Avocet. I think the convenience of having all doors on one key will outweigh the slightly lower security. The wife thinks having all doors on the same key is a security risk, the way I see it keys would be on the same keyring anyway.

I was told that the Mila Secure handle wouldn't be needed with the Ultion cylinder, would that also be the case with the ABS Avocet?

[Pheo]

Iirc avocet don't need a security handle as they are already three star.

We are also having a new front door fitted shortly. Considering a thumb turn for rapid egress in the event of an emergency at night. However the thumb turn locking / not returning and locking us out worries me. Any three star locks which don't have this risk vs the avocet?

[Jonesy23]

I believe the Ultion thumbturn doesn't have the problem the ABS does i.e. the lock works fine regardless of the thumbturn position.

[Pheo]

Jonesy23 said:

I believe the Ultion thumbturn doesn't have the problem the ABS does i.e. the lock works fine regardless of the thumbturn position.

Thanks. Shame you seem to have to be trade to buy them!

[nellystew]

I was going to buy some ABS for my french doors, but my brothers house was broken into last week through the french doors, they ignored the lock (a normal one) and just threw a brick through the window.
If was during the day and loads of neighbours.

[dazwalsh]

nellystew said:

I was going to buy some ABS for my french doors, but my brothers house was broken into last week through the french doors, they ignored the lock (a normal one) and just threw a brick through the window.
If was during the day and loads of neighbours.

I know they went through the glass, but if you could see how quick (and quietly) a standard euro barrel can be compromised you will be getting the new locks.

Brick through the window seems to be a rising trend actually, and not much you can do about that really, apart from making your garden a right pig to get into, and some decent CCTV to try and catch these scumbags

[Jonesy23]

Pheo said:

Thanks. Shame you seem to have to be trade to buy them!

You just need to phone up to order them, they're available retail but not for direct online sale.

H Harrold & Sons will sell direct (securitylocksandhandles.co.uk) and plenty of others too, you just have to call them.

[Pheo]

Jonesy23 said:

You just need to phone up to order them, they're available retail but not for direct online sale.

H Harrold & Sons will sell direct (securitylocksandhandles.co.uk) and plenty of others too, you just have to call them.

Thanks for the tip!

[essayer]

Just moved into a new house and very keen to change the locks - the main door has an easi-T lock with a Euro barrel, but what is odd is that - currently - the outside part of the barrel protudes from the door by about 15mm and the inside by about 30mm - I'm guessing this is completely wrong?
The handle mounting plate is iron and very thin, unlike the sort on UPVC doors etc; I think it would need to be barely 20mm on the 'front' measurement.

Edited by essayer on Sunday 28th February 22:50

[CoolHands]

It may have been replaced before so I wouldn't take any notice - I think you should measure and calculate what you require, that's what I did. Are you not going to replace the handles though with pas24 ones? Cos they will affect the length of lock you need.

[essayer]

Had a check of the door today and it's a 48mm PZ, what's my best bet ?
The existing is a 40/45 lock which protrudes from the handle by about 15mm so doesn't seem ideal.

[dazwalsh]

The lock should be flush with handle on exterior, not so important on inside but again flush for asthetics. If you are getting new handles get them first, and look at PAS24 for extra security.