PIR / Photocell / Time switch: does such a thing exist?

[LooneyTunes]

I'm currently trying to make my garage both more welcoming and secure.

What I'm currently thinking of is a couple of lights on the front that illuminate at dusk (triggered by photocell), turn off at a certain time, but are PIR triggered for the rest of the time.

Is there a single controller that will do all of this for me (even if it needs multiple sensors wiring up)? Looking at separate PIRs and photocells and I can't find one, but can't believe I'm the only person who might want such a thing.

Ideally want all lights triggered by the same device as it would annoy me if the photocell/PIR on each lamp were set slightly differently.

Thanks in advance chaps!

[cjs]

What type of lamp are you thinking of using and are running costs important? If you go for a low wattage type lamp, that will be cost effective to leave on for hours, then they do not work well with PIR's as they do not switch on quickly. Halogens eat electricity, typically 300-500w each, you don't really want to be leaving them on for hours on end.

Maybe two separate systems will be the way to go, some sodium/florescent type lights on a timer/photocell and some standard halogen PIR's on a separate circuit.

I have seen some LED floods with PIR's, don't think they give out that much light though.

[mrmr96]

PhotoCell -> PIR  -> Lights
          \> Timer /^

The idea is that you need either:
Photocell = Dark AND PIR = Activated
OR
Photocell = Dark AND Timer = Activated

- The PIR will be activated/inactivated all the time, but it won't do anything in the day time, as the photosensor says it isn't dark.
- About midday the timer will come on, but still the lights are off as it's no dark.
- Finally the sun sets and the lights come on, as now the photo cell and timer are active.
- At closing time/midnight/whatever the timer goes off, so the lights go off.
- However the photocell still says it's dark, so when the PIR is triggered between now and sunrise, you get the lights on.

You could probably make a circuit that would do what you need it to, either using components or by daisy chaining some off the shelf components. If you want more PIR sensors then put them in parallel with the one in my schematic above. And use the output labelled "lights" to switch a relay which turns all your lights on (to save running the full power through the switching circuit).

HTH

[2stis]

cjs said:

Maybe two separate systems will be the way to go, some sodium/florescent type lights on a timer/photocell and some standard halogen PIR's on a separate circuit.

That is the way I would do it. I have a timer-controlled sodium lamp mounted on a barn that illuminates the drive. It covers a very large area for a reasonable cost (bulb rated at 70w) but it does take a few minutes to 'warm up' and give its full light output, so I wouldn't have thought it would be good for PIR use. I'd be inclined to fit a standard PIR 500W halogen lamp alongside, and most of these already come with the light sensor to ensure that they don't come on with motion before dusk/darkness.

[69 coupe]

Occupancy Sensor?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Timeguard-PDSM1500-Enhance...

[lemonslap]

I work in lighting control, what you need as a duel switching combined photocell/PIR. They have two relays built in typically the first is controlled by both photocell and PIR and the second is PIR only. Seach google for a washroom sensor, these normally have the second relay to ensure that the extractor fan always turn on. PM me if you need a part code to order one from a local wholesaler. Also please don't order the timeguard PIR in the link, they are crap.

Hope this helps

[hairyben]

To answer the original question there's no simple neat device to do all that, it's a case of photocell, then through a timer with volt free switching contacts (other way round will bring lights on in middle of day or whenever timer switches in) and a PIR to bypass the lot.

[lemonslap]

hairyben said:

To answer the original question there's no simple neat device to do all that, it's a case of photocell, then through a timer with volt free switching contacts (other way round will bring lights on in middle of day or whenever timer switches in) and a PIR to bypass the lot.

yes there is see above, simply install the timer before the first relay (photocell/PIR relay). This way the circuit will only have power when the timer allows and the photocell will only switch the lights on when the Lux level is low enough

[LooneyTunes]

Thanks guys.

Seems fairly straightforward then (doubt I'll be switching anything other than relatively low wattage bulbs).

Not been able to find any of the dual switching units online (I need one for external use, so not sure a washroom sensor will work?) but I've got a few places I can put separate components so it won't look like a random mishmash of parts.

Found this little unit that should sort the timing element quite neatly http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/SMFST11.html

Any alternative suggestions (or indeed for other parts of the system) most welcome.

[stefd]

lemonslap said:

hairyben said:

To answer the original question there's no simple neat device to do all that, it's a case of photocell, then through a timer with volt free switching contacts (other way round will bring lights on in middle of day or whenever timer switches in) and a PIR to bypass the lot.

yes there is see above, simply install the timer before the first relay (photocell/PIR relay). This way the circuit will only have power when the timer allows and the photocell will only switch the lights on when the Lux level is low enough

If I've understood the OPs post correctly then your combined photocell/PIR won't work.

1st stage - on when it gets dark irrespective of PIR then off at a fixed time (washroom sensor can't do this).
2nd stage - on when it's dark and PIR is activated.

There's a couple of ways to wire it up but mrm96 has the right idea.

[eliot]

Or get into some home automation with Homeseer and Z-wave.
then you can have endless combinations like lights coming on when you drive up or open your front door or certain time after dusk - even send an email telling you that its just turned the light on or turn your lights on using an iphone etc.

10x more expensive - but i can tell you its highly additive.

[lemonslap]

stefd said:

If I've understood the OPs post correctly then your combined photocell/PIR won't work.

1st stage - on when it gets dark irrespective of PIR then off at a fixed time (washroom sensor can't do this).
2nd stage - on when it's dark and PIR is activated.

There's a couple of ways to wire it up but mrm96 has the right idea.

Not my interpretation but you can achieve the above with a duel sensor (two programmable outputs both infucaned by photocell) OP the solution you need is in the commercial market place not retail. Ask a local wholesaler (chain ie newy's) for the details of their local lighting control engineer (standalone controls) most of use are glad to help! All achievable for about £80.

[lemonslap]

eliot said:

Or get into some home automation with Homeseer and Z-wave.
then you can have endless combinations like lights coming on when you drive up or open your front door or certain time after dusk - even send an email telling you that its just turned the light on or turn your lights on using an iphone etc.

10x more expensive - but i can tell you its highly additive.

Agreed our sister company has just launched a product using Z-wave, impressive stuff. Beats using dyNET and various interfaces!

[Smiler.]

lemonslap said:

.. our sister company..

Rako?

[lemonslap]

Smiler. said:

Rako?

MK

[Smiler.]

lemonslap said:

Smiler. said:

Rako?

MK

Ah, Honeywell

Do you work for Ex-Or?

[bimsb6]

How about a plug in timer like people use to switch lamps on and off to give the impression somebody is in and the lighting with a pir run off a plug ,plugged into the timer .

[mrmr96]

bimsb6 said:

How about a plug in timer like people use to switch lamps on and off to give the impression somebody is in and the lighting with a pir run off a plug ,plugged into the timer .

Because that won't allow the lights to run constantly from dusk until closing time. You have created a time-limited PIR, whereas what's required is a time-limited PIR bypass.

[hairyben]

lemonslap said:

hairyben said:

To answer the original question there's no simple neat device to do all that, it's a case of photocell, then through a timer with volt free switching contacts (other way round will bring lights on in middle of day or whenever timer switches in) and a PIR to bypass the lot.

yes there is see above, simply install the timer before the first relay (photocell/PIR relay). This way the circuit will only have power when the timer allows and the photocell will only switch the lights on when the Lux level is low enough

Well there obviously isn't, as you mention several devices yourself. And evan if there was there's a good case for ignoring it and having them all separate anyway as timers, PIR's and photocells are all failure prone and a £15-20 replacement of a common part wins over replacing some fancy oh-la-la costapacket special order item.

There's no need for any relays unless the load demands it.

[lemonslap]

hairyben said:

Well there obviously isn't, as you mention several devices yourself. And evan if there was there's a good case for ignoring it and having them all separate anyway as timers, PIR's and photocells are all failure prone and a £15-20 replacement of a common part wins over replacing some fancy oh-la-la costapacket special order item.

There's no need for any relays unless the load demands it.

Same product different programming . Switching load with an automated controller should always be done through a relay or with greater loads a contactor.I agree there is a lot of crap photocell/PIR's out there, however not all are failure prone. I have been out to clients who have 10 year old systems without any issues, just reprogramming for change of decor.(reflective Lux)