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Ray Luxury-Yacht
Original Poster
6,374 posts
85 months
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Here's an interesting question regarding thermal efficency etc. and British Gas's recent (successful) attempt to f  k up all our work and expense... We have a 30-odd year old place, that had single glazed wood windows from new. At great expense, I had the latest double-glazed units and doors fitted, and the loft insulated and then boarded over too (useful storage as well as insulation). The house was noticeably warmer and less draughty, and we could turn the heating thermostat down quite a bit since. Good result. Until - British Gas came to do their yearly service on our warm-air heating system. It's a basic system, that uses a gas burner and an electric fan that blows air across the burner and then into the house via trunking and grilles in the ceilings and walls. It's not expensive to run, it's been utterly reliable, and we like it very much, and would not want to replace it with a water boiler and radiators. The unit is situated in an upstairs hallway cupboard. For the last 30 years, it's happily used two metal trunking pipes that go up out of the top of it's cupboard, up through the loft space, which terminate in the ridge of the house's roof, via two separate vented ridge tiles. One pipe is for the fresh air inlet for the burner / heat exchanger, and the other is for venting combustion gases. Over the last 30 years, it's worked perfectly, no-one has died from Carbon Monoxide poisoning (I even have a CO alarm hanging in the hallway by the system) and there have been no fires, breakdowns or any dramas. Last year, the BG bloke arrived, 12 months after the last one who gave it a clean bill of health the year before, and with furrowed brows and much sucking of air through teeth, condemned our system as being dangerous and lethal (I was at work when this happened btw) and turned off the gas supply, switched off the electric, and hung a load of bright yellow notices on the unit warning that we would all die terribly if it was switched on  Turns out the 'regulations' have all changed, and the fix (which we paid them to do at great expense) was to go into the loft, uncouple the fresh air intake trunking and blank it all off, cut two huge holes in the door over the appliance, and fit two massive grilles. Then, they went downstairs into the lounge, drilled a huge 6-inch diameter hole into the lounge wall / brickwork, and fit a grille over it outside and inside. So basically, instead of the heating system drawing fresh air down from the roof apex inlet, it now draws it's air in from the cupboard itself, via the new door vents and basically through the entire house via the new vent in the lounge. Very quickly, we began to notice a hideous cold draft in the lounge from this bloody vent - thus negating all the expense of insulation and double glazing!  So of course, we now have a heavy book blocking the flipping vent to stop the draughts. The heating system seems to be plodding on ok as usual - and the CO alarm has't gone mental yet. So, the question is - why? Was it the correct thing to do on their part with regard to 'new' regulations? Why is it better / safer than the original setup?  And why is it deemed to be acceptable to introduce a huge, heat-losing grille into the living space of a house, especially in light of how we're all trying to insulate our houses as best as possible, save money on heating, and eliminate draghts???? Maybe a heating / gas engineer can enlighten me...
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Jimboka
2,674 posts
73 months
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Note to self - Akways be at home when boiler man calls in order to tell him to F off before he trashes my house..
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Simpo Two
54,226 posts
134 months
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They did all that work without asking you?
My boiler was condemned once - I can't remember why I got a man in, not even sure if it was BG. Perhaps they were offering free checks... anyway, it was promptly condemned because there was some Virginia creeper growing through the vent outside. So after he'd gone I trimmed back the offending plant and switched the boiler back on. Still going strong years later and the CO detector reads 0.
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Deva Link
26,916 posts
114 months
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h0b0
1,449 posts
65 months
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Have they not made it a closed system now which should be more efficient? Is the draught just moving air in the room. That means the vent could be better located but it sounds like an upgrade to me.
I have forced air heating and cooling and would not go back to radiators. With the system you have it would be an easy upgrade to AC.
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hidetheelephants
5,598 posts
62 months
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My gasfire was sporadically condemned as a deathtrap, then reapproved by different BG wonks, generally with nothing more strenuous than removing a bit of accumulated dust from the housing. Gasmen are bit variable in quality; find someone local you trust then stick with them. I don't think many of them actually understand the rules they are supposed to apply, never mind the physics behind them.
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Adrian W
8,117 posts
97 months
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They condemmed my heating system recently, I signed up for their service plan, they came to do the inspection before it started, the bloke said he had to turn it off and put stickers on everything because his boss didnt like the Magnaclean, I asked if it was aginst regulations and he said no, but its not the one British Gas supply, I threw him out and got my money back.
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Rickyy
3,323 posts
88 months
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Ray Luxury-Yacht said: Here's an interesting question regarding thermal efficency etc. and British Gas's recent (successful) attempt to f k up all our work and expense... We have a 30-odd year old place, that had single glazed wood windows from new. At great expense, I had the latest double-glazed units and doors fitted, and the loft insulated and then boarded over too (useful storage as well as insulation). The house was noticeably warmer and less draughty, and we could turn the heating thermostat down quite a bit since. Good result. Until - British Gas came to do their yearly service on our warm-air heating system. It's a basic system, that uses a gas burner and an electric fan that blows air across the burner and then into the house via trunking and grilles in the ceilings and walls. It's not expensive to run, it's been utterly reliable, and we like it very much, and would not want to replace it with a water boiler and radiators. The unit is situated in an upstairs hallway cupboard. For the last 30 years, it's happily used two metal trunking pipes that go up out of the top of it's cupboard, up through the loft space, which terminate in the ridge of the house's roof, via two separate vented ridge tiles. One pipe is for the fresh air inlet for the burner / heat exchanger, and the other is for venting combustion gases. Over the last 30 years, it's worked perfectly, no-one has died from Carbon Monoxide poisoning (I even have a CO alarm hanging in the hallway by the system) and there have been no fires, breakdowns or any dramas. Last year, the BG bloke arrived, 12 months after the last one who gave it a clean bill of health the year before, and with furrowed brows and much sucking of air through teeth, condemned our system as being dangerous and lethal (I was at work when this happened btw) and turned off the gas supply, switched off the electric, and hung a load of bright yellow notices on the unit warning that we would all die terribly if it was switched on Turns out the 'regulations' have all changed, and the fix (which we paid them to do at great expense) was to go into the loft, uncouple the fresh air intake trunking and blank it all off, cut two huge holes in the door over the appliance, and fit two massive grilles. Then, they went downstairs into the lounge, drilled a huge 6-inch diameter hole into the lounge wall / brickwork, and fit a grille over it outside and inside. So basically, instead of the heating system drawing fresh air down from the roof apex inlet, it now draws it's air in from the cupboard itself, via the new door vents and basically through the entire house via the new vent in the lounge. Very quickly, we began to notice a hideous cold draft in the lounge from this bloody vent - thus negating all the expense of insulation and double glazing! So of course, we now have a heavy book blocking the flipping vent to stop the draughts. The heating system seems to be plodding on ok as usual - and the CO alarm has't gone mental yet. So, the question is - why? Was it the correct thing to do on their part with regard to 'new' regulations? Why is it better / safer than the original setup? And why is it deemed to be acceptable to introduce a huge, heat-losing grille into the living space of a house, especially in light of how we're all trying to insulate our houses as best as possible, save money on heating, and eliminate draghts???? Maybe a heating / gas engineer can enlighten me... I'm not qualified for warm air systems, but it sounds to me as if it has been changed from a balanced flue to a conventional flue setup. I have no idea what regulation has forced this, but as I said, I know little about warm air. The ducting for the air inlet wasn't boxed in by any chance was it? There is a regulation coming into force on the 1st of January 2013 that states any flue inside a void must have an access panel for inspection. If not the installation is classed as immediately dangerous and the appliance will be disconnected from the gas supply. I know British Gas seem to be enforcing this early as they condemned one of my customers boilers. That vent in the wall is there for a reason, don't block it and don't trust your life on a CO detector.
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mondeoman
6,776 posts
135 months
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Any way you could knock up a diagram to show how the fresh air and combustion air are/were separated?
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McHaggis
7,671 posts
24 months
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Adrian W said: They condemmed my heating system recently, I signed up for their service plan, they came to do the inspection before it started, the bloke said he had to turn it off and put stickers on everything because his boss didnt like the Magnaclean, I asked if it was aginst regulations and he said no, but its not the one British Gas supply, I threw him out and got my money back. He condemned it for having a magnaclean fitted???
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B Huey
4,881 posts
68 months
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BG are a bunch of cocks. They isolated a customers gas supply because their heater hadn't been serviced in the last 12 months.
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ARH
1,078 posts
108 months
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before I moved house a gas engineer was sent round buy the buyer to check our system. it was also comdemed as dangerous and would cost £4k to fit a new system. He did not even know how to use his tester properly, and stumbled through the test procedure. I did not trust his verdict so got my regular guy round he cleaned it a bit, then tested it and it was fine passed with plenty to spare. the buyer needless to say did not believe this and pulled out as I would not drop the price by £4k. I have since reported the first engineer to gas safe but heard anything.
My engineer phoned the man in charge of gas safe in the area to check he was performing all the checks he should before signing it off.
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g7jtk
258 posts
23 months
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As far as am aware regulations are not retrospective so if the system was fitted in line with the regulations in force at the time you do not need to update to meet the current regulations.
The system should however be working correctly. It is only recomender that the system is serviced but does not have to be.
Remember you have invited the engineer into your home to keep you safe.
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Deva Link
26,916 posts
114 months
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g7jtk said: As far as am aware regulations are not retrospective... They are with the 'flue in a void' thing that Rickyy mentions above.
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King Herald
18,339 posts
85 months
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Our house is rented out and the tenants had a guy in for the yearly gas inspection six months ago, and they too had the yellow warning stickers plastered on and were told the boiler was dangerous and would kill them. "Regulations have changed and your boiler is now illegal" they were told.
Our agent e-mailed me, and explained, and I then phoned the Home Care inspection people, who back pedaled and told me it was just an advisory, once they found out I actually knew what I was talking about.
They seem to have a bunch of shady characters working for them who operate on the principle that they are qualified and thus the rest of the world are idiots who know nothing.
One old fart loudly proclaimed how he would never have accepted our house for Home care cover because the boiler was in the garage. "What if there is a leak and the garage fills with gas, and then you started your car?" he waffled.
Probably the same as would if the house filled with gas and I started the gas cooker......
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Simpo Two
54,226 posts
134 months
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King Herald said: One old fart loudly proclaimed how he would never have accepted our house for Home care cover because the boiler was in the garage. "What if there is a leak and the garage fills with gas, and then you started your car?" he waffled. Well the sparks are in the cylinders, not exposed to atmosphere. Or you could have a diesel of course. But being trapped in a hole in the dark with an owl - now THAT is dangerous...
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McHaggis
7,671 posts
24 months
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Simpo Two said: Well the sparks are in the cylinders, not exposed to atmosphere. Or you could have a diesel of course.
But being trapped in a hole in the dark with an owl - now THAT is dangerous... Where would you be if you fell down a hole... Stuck down a hole... in the fog... Stuck down a hole, in the fog, at night... WITH AN OWL!
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Adrian W
8,117 posts
97 months
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McHaggis said: Adrian W said: They condemmed my heating system recently, I signed up for their service plan, they came to do the inspection before it started, the bloke said he had to turn it off and put stickers on everything because his boss didnt like the Magnaclean, I asked if it was aginst regulations and he said no, but its not the one British Gas supply, I threw him out and got my money back. He condemned it for having a magnaclean fitted??? Yes, his explanation was that BG don't like them, I argued, he phoned his boss who backed him up, nothing wrong with installation or anything else in the system, he said BG didn't like the Adey products, as I said I made him leave.
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Davidos
137 posts
66 months
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McHaggis said: Where would you be if you fell down a hole... Stuck down a hole... in the fog... Stuck down a hole, in the fog, at night... WITH AN OWL! 
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g7jtk
258 posts
23 months
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Deva Link said: They are with the 'flue in a void' thing that Rickyy mentions above. But it doesn't say anything about a boxed in flue in the original post. Unless it hadn't bee correctly fitted in the first place. Sounds like ventilation was the problem. You allways follow the manufacturers instructions first if you have them then the building regs. (We were told)
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