Weed Killer- the daddy?
Discussion
McWigglebum4th said:
It's just glyphosate Willy Nilly said:
McWigglebum4th said:
It's just glyphosate HoggyR32 said:
I use stuff called Gallup. Does the job nicely
Which is also glyphosate: http://www.pitchcare.com/shop/professional-weed-ki...IIRC the OP wanted a total residual weedkiller, and glyphosate isn't one.
Simpo Two said:
HoggyR32 said:
I use stuff called Gallup. Does the job nicely
Which is also glyphosate: http://www.pitchcare.com/shop/professional-weed-ki...IIRC the OP wanted a total residual weedkiller, and glyphosate isn't one.
ssray said:
Sodium chloriate? or something like that, the old boys near me swear by it, clears stuff for 6mths or so
This is why private individuals only get to use watered down s
te from B&Q. The professionals (that get all the abuse for pesticide problems) have to have handling and application certificates, the equipment has to be tested annually, the people prescribing it have to be qualified and there is an audit trail as long as your arm. But "gardeners" just chuck the stuff on like sugar on a bowl on cornflakes. McWigglebum4th said:
Willy Nilly said:
McWigglebum4th said:
It's just glyphosate Willy Nilly said:
ssray said:
Sodium chloriate? or something like that, the old boys near me swear by it, clears stuff for 6mths or so
This is why private individuals only get to use watered down ste from B&Q. The professionals (that get all the abuse for pesticide problems) have to have handling and application certificates, the equipment has to be tested annually, the people prescribing it have to be qualified and there is an audit trail as long as your arm. But "gardeners" just chuck the stuff on like sugar on a bowl on cornflakes. You can get round the rules though, there is a 'grandfather clause' (or there was a couple of years ago, when we had a weed-covered paddock and wanted some Grazon 90) meaning that the certs are only required by anyone born after (IIRC) 1965 - born before that and you don't need to prove anything - being born in 1969 I got my dad to buy us a bottle since I have neither the time or inclination to do courses that tell me what I've known for 40 years.
Alternatively there are plenty of places online that sell high-concentration glyphosates like Clinic Ace or combined products like Pistol that has another ingredient added alongside glyphosate to stop shoots forming, you'd probably get away with buying from one of them as I believe they only ask you to ensure the person applying the product has certification.
You do still need to use the stuff responsibly though, it's is restricted partly because of the abuse some people have given it in the past (and partly because the Governemnt & EU is hell bent on saving us from ourselves), but the precautions are pretty common sense and anyone with an ounce of responsibility should be perfectly capable of following them.
Mark Benson said:
You can get round the rules though, there is a 'grandfather clause' (or there was a couple of years ago, when we had a weed-covered paddock and wanted some Grazon 90) meaning that the certs are only required by anyone born after (IIRC) 1965
I quite like that - it means if you haven't managed to kill yourself in 48 years you must be quite sensible!When I worked for a garden chemical company we used to trot out the official line all the time - just like plumbers say you can't use push-fit and electricians say you need a certificate to wire a plug. Now I can't be bothered and it doesn't seem so terribly important as all the PHers load up with napalm!
Simpo, i'm afraid the Glosphate you seem to think is safe is not as safe as you think.
Also if you read the following article it will show you that the stuff I recommended
actually IS safe !!! Which suprised me as well, but not my dad, who used to work on
an ammonia plant donkeys ago. First thing he said was Ammonium Sulphate, it turns from
weedkiller to a fertiliser after a while.
Also a Wiki link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonium_sulfamate
Taken from an allotment website;
For many years I've used ammonium sulphamate as a weedkiller. It's a very simple chemical, basically the same as sulphate of ammonia the nitrogen fertiliser but made crooked. I'm no chemist, but it was explained to me that it worked very much like carbon monoxide does in our bloodstream. The plants think they are taking in nitrogen fertiliser but, because the molecule is wrong, they can not use it and so die off.
It's never been a cheap weedkiller, there's not the volume to give real economy of scale, but it is very effective. It's taken right down to the plant roots and it's the most effective way to deal with an infestation of horse tail.
Because it is a simple chemical the environmental effects are easy to judge. When it is sprayed onto the soil any plants will die but gradually the effect of the oxygen is to turn it back into sulphate of ammonia, the fertiliser.
The worst case scenario is that the soil is made slightly more acid and the NPK balance gets affected for a short while.
This simple chemical formulation means that we know the risks to human safety pretty clearly. They're not much different to the fertilizer. Obviously you're not going to eat it in the same way you're not going to eat a bag of fertilizer and if you did try the acidity and taste would stop you taking in enough to do harm.
Ammonium Sulphamate Banned!
The glorious EU, home for more bureaucrats than Whitehall, demands that manufacturers of pesticides supply a complete dossier on their product. That sounds a good idea ( we don't want another DDT Silent Spring). Let's be safe. The term pesticide is taken to include:
insect killers (insecticides)
mould and fungi killers (fungicides)
weedkillers (herbicides)
slug pellets (molluscicides)
plant growth regulators
bird and animal repellents, and
rat and mouse killers (rodenticides)
So our simple, effective and safe product must supply a complete dossier at the expense of the manufacturer. To quote from the government web site on pesticides regarding the withdrawal of products:
The company decides not to support the active substance through the review. This often happens if the pesticide is old and there are already more modern pesticides on the market, or because sales of the pesticide have fallen. It would not make sense for a company to spend a large amount of money supporting an active substance in the review if they could not get this back through sales of the pesticide.
So, as gardeners, we are unable to use a product known to be safe logically and proven safe for years because they suppliers cannot afford to prove it is safe.
It Gets Worse!
Now that we cannot get Amicide, Deep Root, Growing Success Bramble Killer, Root Out and other brands that contained ammonium sulphamate we're effectively stuck with one product glyphosate.
Weve had a raging debate on the forums about the safety of glyphosate. It's a complex chemical and there are conflicting views about its safety both environmentally and in its effects on human health.
My own view is that it is safe to use occasionally and carefully but not as safe as the simple, old fashioned ammonium sulphamate.
It's also a weedkiller associated with gene modified crops, Make the crop resistant to the weedkiller and you can spray, spray, spray leaving the crop saleable. Note I say saleable not safe and healthy. Very profitable though, profitable enough to ensure the correct results are provided to the EU.
Conclusion
Good intentions carried to extremes by bureaucrats who can follow rules in great detail but cannot use common sense means we are denied a great safe product and the multi-national chemical conglomerate is sitting with a large smile.
Also if you read the following article it will show you that the stuff I recommended
actually IS safe !!! Which suprised me as well, but not my dad, who used to work on
an ammonia plant donkeys ago. First thing he said was Ammonium Sulphate, it turns from
weedkiller to a fertiliser after a while.
Also a Wiki link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonium_sulfamate
Taken from an allotment website;
For many years I've used ammonium sulphamate as a weedkiller. It's a very simple chemical, basically the same as sulphate of ammonia the nitrogen fertiliser but made crooked. I'm no chemist, but it was explained to me that it worked very much like carbon monoxide does in our bloodstream. The plants think they are taking in nitrogen fertiliser but, because the molecule is wrong, they can not use it and so die off.
It's never been a cheap weedkiller, there's not the volume to give real economy of scale, but it is very effective. It's taken right down to the plant roots and it's the most effective way to deal with an infestation of horse tail.
Because it is a simple chemical the environmental effects are easy to judge. When it is sprayed onto the soil any plants will die but gradually the effect of the oxygen is to turn it back into sulphate of ammonia, the fertiliser.
The worst case scenario is that the soil is made slightly more acid and the NPK balance gets affected for a short while.
This simple chemical formulation means that we know the risks to human safety pretty clearly. They're not much different to the fertilizer. Obviously you're not going to eat it in the same way you're not going to eat a bag of fertilizer and if you did try the acidity and taste would stop you taking in enough to do harm.
Ammonium Sulphamate Banned!
The glorious EU, home for more bureaucrats than Whitehall, demands that manufacturers of pesticides supply a complete dossier on their product. That sounds a good idea ( we don't want another DDT Silent Spring). Let's be safe. The term pesticide is taken to include:
insect killers (insecticides)
mould and fungi killers (fungicides)
weedkillers (herbicides)
slug pellets (molluscicides)
plant growth regulators
bird and animal repellents, and
rat and mouse killers (rodenticides)
So our simple, effective and safe product must supply a complete dossier at the expense of the manufacturer. To quote from the government web site on pesticides regarding the withdrawal of products:
The company decides not to support the active substance through the review. This often happens if the pesticide is old and there are already more modern pesticides on the market, or because sales of the pesticide have fallen. It would not make sense for a company to spend a large amount of money supporting an active substance in the review if they could not get this back through sales of the pesticide.
So, as gardeners, we are unable to use a product known to be safe logically and proven safe for years because they suppliers cannot afford to prove it is safe.
It Gets Worse!
Now that we cannot get Amicide, Deep Root, Growing Success Bramble Killer, Root Out and other brands that contained ammonium sulphamate we're effectively stuck with one product glyphosate.
Weve had a raging debate on the forums about the safety of glyphosate. It's a complex chemical and there are conflicting views about its safety both environmentally and in its effects on human health.
My own view is that it is safe to use occasionally and carefully but not as safe as the simple, old fashioned ammonium sulphamate.
It's also a weedkiller associated with gene modified crops, Make the crop resistant to the weedkiller and you can spray, spray, spray leaving the crop saleable. Note I say saleable not safe and healthy. Very profitable though, profitable enough to ensure the correct results are provided to the EU.
Conclusion
Good intentions carried to extremes by bureaucrats who can follow rules in great detail but cannot use common sense means we are denied a great safe product and the multi-national chemical conglomerate is sitting with a large smile.
Edited by BlackZeD on Wednesday 17th April 17:27
Have a google for "home made weedkiller". Some of them are quite effective, as well as being an educational and fun time for all the family.
I've had good results from a mixture of boiling water, salt and washing up liquid, delivered from a garden sprayer. Downsides are that you need to be sure you don't want anything to grow on the site for a while (this could be an upside of course) and you have to be a bit careful with the garden sprayer as it's like carrying a massive hot water bottle around.
I've had good results from a mixture of boiling water, salt and washing up liquid, delivered from a garden sprayer. Downsides are that you need to be sure you don't want anything to grow on the site for a while (this could be an upside of course) and you have to be a bit careful with the garden sprayer as it's like carrying a massive hot water bottle around.
Willy Nilly said:
AFAIK Monsantos patent on glyphosate ran out years ago so anyone can make it now. The firm I work for buys Clinic Ace in 25 litre drums on pallets. Our chemical bill runs into 6 figures.
The firm I work for buys it and supplies it, hundreds of thousands of litres.And we would take a dim view of any staff selling to non professional users.
Luftgekuhlt said:
Have a google for "home made weedkiller". Some of them are quite effective, as well as being an educational and fun time for all the family.
Ah yes but if I put my crumpled agrochem hat on again it says anything used as a pesticide must be tested first (ie like all the commercial produts are, LD50 etc) so you're still nicked sonny. Oh heck, spray and be damned 
Simpo Two said:
Luftgekuhlt said:
Have a google for "home made weedkiller". Some of them are quite effective, as well as being an educational and fun time for all the family.
Ah yes but if I put my crumpled agrochem hat on again it says anything used as a pesticide must be tested first (ie like all the commercial produts are, LD50 etc) so you're still nicked sonny. Oh heck, spray and be damned Also it has been said, probably by some VERY BAD PEOPLE, that Wilko's dirt cheap thin beach (25p a bottle) can make a very effective mess of your dandelions (not a euphemism).
Anybody trying this out is an environmental criminal and deserves a long stretch in one of Rob Newman's re-education camps.
Oh this wife bought some of this stuff from B&Q
http://www.diy.com/nav/garden/garden-care-watering...
It is spectacuarly ineffiective
I ended up pouring one entire scahet on one weed
It went a wee bit limp for a day or two before carrying on regardless
I should really use it all up if only to get a not very good bucket
http://www.diy.com/nav/garden/garden-care-watering...
It is spectacuarly ineffiective
I ended up pouring one entire scahet on one weed
It went a wee bit limp for a day or two before carrying on regardless
I should really use it all up if only to get a not very good bucket
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