Weed Killer- the daddy?

[Willy Nilly]

227bhp said:

Spudler said:

227bhp said:

Spudler said:

227bhp said:

What is good for woody stuff like brambles? I've managed to stunt their growth this year, but not killed them completely.

Clinic Ace.

It's ste, I got some after recommendation on here.

Well you're obviously a tad simple.
Get someone to read you the instructions.
""st", it certainly isn't.

Instructions are here so you can read them for yourself: http://www.nufarm.com/Assets/12786/1/NufarmClinicA...
It says nothing about treating brambles nor does it kill them you dhead.

We buy pallets of the stuff. It will kill brambles. And trees. 600ml in 10 litres of water will kill them.

[Simpo Two]

Having read NuFarm's PDF, Clinic Ace is (1) a professional agrochemical product that Joe Gardener is not supposed to be using (2) the active ingredient is glyphosate.

There is no mention of brambles in the PDF because the product is not intended to be used on brambles. It is intended to be used on grass and broadleaved weeds (see page 1).

Glyphosate is a total non-residual translocated herbicide which means it's basically capable of killing all plants. So Clinic Ace will kill brambles, but it does not have clearance for that application and it certainly doesn't have clearance for use in any way shape or form by Joe Gardener.

[1878]

As this thread springs back into life as often as the weeds we are trying to kill ...

I have some wild fennel that's taken hold in my front garden. What's the best way to get rid? Not too fussed about collateral damage though I've some mature palm trees that I wouldn't want to ruin.

[Simpo Two]

1) Dig it up

2) Glyphosate!

[Mojooo]

Just to add my experience

I bought a strong solution of glysophate online and made it up 50m/l to a litre (I think!) - the shop bought stuff is about 9m/l a litre.

Anyway, sparayed it and gave it 2 weeks. Seems to have doen the job but I did miss soem bits so will give it a second coating.

[Simpo Two]

Mojooo said:

Just to add my experience

I bought a strong solution of glysophate online and made it up 50m/l to a litre (I think!) - the shop bought stuff is about 9m/l a litre.

Anyway, sparayed it and gave it 2 weeks. Seems to have doen the job but I did miss soem bits so will give it a second coating.

Good thinking but what you need to work out is grams of active ingredient per cm3. Starting with cm3 of concentrate is misleading as forumalations differ. Agrochem stuff is much stronger than domestic.

[227bhp]

Simpo Two said:

Having read NuFarm's PDF, Clinic Ace is (1) a professional agrochemical product that Joe Gardener is not supposed to be using (2) the active ingredient is glyphosate.

There is no mention of brambles in the PDF because the product is not intended to be used on brambles. It is intended to be used on grass and broadleaved weeds (see page 1).

Glyphosate is a total non-residual translocated herbicide which means it's basically capable of killing all plants. So Clinic Ace will kill brambles, but it does not have clearance for that application and it certainly doesn't have clearance for use in any way shape or form by Joe Gardener.

I'll have to get you a pic, it's killed everything around, but left the brambles even after a few extra doses of it mixed as per instructions. I'll just have to mix it stronger (not as per instructions) and put some on, not much point at this time of the year though as they'll be dying back naturally soon.

[Simpo Two]

There are two kinds of customers. One uses half as much to save money, and the other uses twice as much to 'make sure of it' . Glyphosate has to be translocated (carried to the roots) - and that needs a living plant, so with agrochem stuff at least, the recommended dose is there for a reason - teams of bods have put much effort into years of field trials to establish the best dose. That's assuming you're using the product for its intended purpose of course; once you go off piste you can't complain if it doesn't work.

Spray is more effective than watering can (droplet surface area:volume ratio) and of course don't apply it if there's likely to be rain within 24 hours. HTH!

[227bhp]

Simpo Two said:

There are two kinds of customers. One uses half as much to save money, and the other uses twice as much to 'make sure of it' . Glyphosate has to be translocated (carried to the roots) - and that needs a living plant, so with agrochem stuff at least, the recommended dose is there for a reason - teams of bods have put much effort into years of field trials to establish the best dose. That's assuming you're using the product for its intended purpose of course; once you go off piste you can't complain if it doesn't work.

Spray is more effective than watering can (droplet surface area:volume ratio) and of course don't apply it if there's likely to be rain within 24 hours. HTH!

Wrong, there are three, i'm the one you didn't mention - you know, the one who sits down, reads instructions and follows them, uses a sprayer and looks at the weather forecast.

[theboss]

227bhp said:

Simpo Two said:

There are two kinds of customers. One uses half as much to save money, and the other uses twice as much to 'make sure of it' . Glyphosate has to be translocated (carried to the roots) - and that needs a living plant, so with agrochem stuff at least, the recommended dose is there for a reason - teams of bods have put much effort into years of field trials to establish the best dose. That's assuming you're using the product for its intended purpose of course; once you go off piste you can't complain if it doesn't work.

Spray is more effective than watering can (droplet surface area:volume ratio) and of course don't apply it if there's likely to be rain within 24 hours. HTH!

Wrong, there are three, i'm the one you didn't mention - you know, the one who sits down, reads instructions and follows them, uses a sprayer and looks at the weather forecast.

Likewise. It only took one garden center priced bottle of roundup to incentivise me to do all the necessary homework and buy some proper st online, which has been used responsibly since.

[Condi]

Glysophate killed all the 3-4 year old brambles in my garden last year. Not sure on dosage - you get a 'feel' for it after a while, probably stronger than Willy and Simpo use but whatever. Cheap and does the job. If yours isnt killing brambles you've done something wrong.


Simpo - the rules on professional ag chem/garden stuff are very very very complicated. I looked at it for a good few hours and the regulations seem to contradict each other. As far as I could tell, for use for someone else - ie in employment - then needs PA certs, but for domestic rules much less clear. Think it was basically that the seller had to ensure the buyer had read the rules/instructions and wasnt going to use it for professional purposes without PA paperwork, but nothing specifically on using in your garden. Basically buy it online and crack on.

[Maty]

As above, I bought this stuff off amazon with a 5L sprayer for brambles:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Gallup-Concentrated-Glypho...

It comes with a measuring cup, 1 cup to 5L of water, spray on the brambles/leafs and they die after a week or so.

I also sprayed it over a section of the garden where the previous owners literally just threw a 1000 different bulbs in to see what grew. The result is a mess of grasses/weeds/plants and all sorts. All of that is now also dead after one application.

[Simpo Two]

Condi said:

Simpo - the rules on professional ag chem/garden stuff are very very very complicated. I looked at it for a good few hours and the regulations seem to contradict each other. As far as I could tell, for use for someone else - ie in employment - then needs PA certs, but for domestic rules much less clear. Think it was basically that the seller had to ensure the buyer had read the rules/instructions and wasnt going to use it for professional purposes without PA paperwork, but nothing specifically on using in your garden. Basically buy it online and crack on.

Well, the idea is that pesticides (collective term for herbicides, fungicides and insecticides) are 'approved' for use in certain areas - for example farming, amenity (eg golf courses), horticulture or gardens. They get this approval after being tested on certain plants in certain ways. If your product says it kills dandelions, for example, you have to provide efficacy data to prove it. If it hasn't been tested on, say, clover, then in theory you can't say it kills clover, even if it does. In short, it hasn't been 'approved' for use on clover. This may sound petty but it's very important when it comes to food crops and pesticide residues.

The higher up the 'pro' scale you go the greater the range of pesticides available and the greater the concentration. That's because, in theory at least, farmers etc have the necessary training and competence to handle and apply what can be hazardous chemicals - especially insecticides. It simply wouldn't be safe to let Joe Public spray them about willy nilly. In addition the 'formulation' (the rest of the product that's not an active ingredient but helps it to work) varies. And so you can see that by the time you arrive in Mrs Miggins' Garden Centre, whatever's there has to be pretty much idiot proof. Actives are fewer and formulations changed to achieve this. If a product/formulation hasn't been approved for garden use, then officially it can't be used in one, even if it would be effective.

That said, the internet has made something of a mockery of the system, as the public can now buy and use products not approved for domestic use. 'Please tick the box to indicate you are qualified to use this product'...

I have mixed views; whilst I represented the industry (garden sector) many moons ago and had to trot out the various phrases such as 'children and pets need not be excluded from treated areas once the spray has dried'; I can sympathise with the people who buy professional products over the internet and use them with common sense. There's a parallel with stove fitting. You are *supposed* to get a qualified stove fitter to fit your stove because if you get it wrong it can be dangerous. But then again, if you have a decent brain, you can probably fit a tube to a box and survive. It all comes down to common sense, and the need for authority to cater for those without it.

[Condi]

I think you've missed the point. I am fully aware of what farmers have access to, and what garden centres will sell - from spending the first 25 years of my life on a farm!


What Im saying is that the whole idea of 'professional' chems which are regulated and only certain people have access to isnt true. For professional use the user must be certified to the correct level, but for a domestic user they dont have to - they can self declare themselves to be competent and buy the same chemicals for use at home. They do not legally need a certificate to do so.

The distinction in law is the difference between someone who is paid to use them, and someone who is not. Those who are paid to use them have to be 'proved' to be competent, those who are using them at home, who just need to say they will abide by the instructions on the package.

[Simpo Two]

Condi said:

What Im saying is that the whole idea of 'professional' chems which are regulated and only certain people have access to isnt true. For professional use the user must be certified to the correct level, but for a domestic user they dont have to - they can self declare themselves to be competent and buy the same chemicals for use at home. They do not legally need a certificate to do so.

The distinction in law is the difference between someone who is paid to use them, and someone who is not. Those who are paid to use them have to be 'proved' to be competent, those who are using them at home, who just need to say they will abide by the instructions on the package.

I think our view of the industry is the same, except you're saying it's legal for any one to buy weapons grade agrochemical insecticide (by lying about his comptetence) and then spraying it in his face by accident, as long as no-one's paying him to use it. If that's the case, the fair enough, that's how it is now.

Edited by Simpo Two on Friday 18th September 23:37

[227bhp]

^^ Pretty much the same as 2K paint then.

[Condi]

Simpo Two said:

I think our view of the industry is the same, except you're saying it's legal for any one to buy weapons grade agrochemical insecticide (by lying about his comptetence) and then spraying it in his face by accident, as long as no-one's paying him to use it.

Yes, basically.

An employer has to show duty of care, and is liable in case of malpractice or injury to the employee.

A domestic user is responsible for their own competence and use.

[Simpo Two]

Condi said:

An employer has to show duty of care, and is liable in case of malpractice or injury to the employee.

A domestic user is responsible for their own competence and use.

True, but what about the responsibility of the supplier to ensure the (unknown mail-order) customer is suitably qualified? Is an e-commerce tick box really enough? If so then all the work of the last few decades has been wasted.

[Condi]

Simpo Two said:

True, but what about the responsibility of the supplier to ensure the (unknown mail-order) customer is suitably qualified? Is an e-commerce tick box really enough? If so then all the work of the last few decades has been wasted.

I take the view that its a persons own responsibility what they do at home. Certainly not for a commercial company to decide what I can use at home, that is the governments job if they see fit. For home use they do not need to be qualified, they need to be competent, which are very different things.

[Willy Nilly]

Condi said:

Simpo Two said:

True, but what about the responsibility of the supplier to ensure the (unknown mail-order) customer is suitably qualified? Is an e-commerce tick box really enough? If so then all the work of the last few decades has been wasted.

I take the view that its a persons own responsibility what they do at home. Certainly not for a commercial company to decide what I can use at home, that is the governments job if they see fit. For home use they do not need to be qualified, they need to be competent, which are very different things.

While we don't expect most householders to be competent sprayer operators and sort of expect them to just chuck it on, there is only some much damage you can do with even 5 litres of neat Clinic Ace compared with the volumes we use when it's being poured into the sprayer 20 litres at a time.