Orangery / kitchen ideas - inspiration needed

Orangery / kitchen ideas - inspiration needed

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TallMark

Original Poster:

593 posts

226 months

Wednesday 23rd April 2014
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We are considering extending our kitchen out with an open plan orangery added to it. The rationale is:

- to make it more of a family room as the kids get older (watch them do their homework while wife cooks tea)
- we tend to sit around in the kitch with friends and want a better layout
- more storage (especially wall units out the reach of little ones) and better layout in the kitchen which isn't well designed at the moment
- better way out onto the patio for summer months

But we're really struggling to envision the whole thing very well, so I'm hoping the good people on here can help.

Here's our current layout:



And here's what we're thinking:



Some shots and renderings of the current layout now, and view from the garden.






We've already knocked an opening through between the dining room and kitchen, and that's made a bit of dead space which originally had a small kitchen table but is now redundant.

My ideas so far (happy to hear criticism and better ones!)
- sofas and TV in the orangery half
- big central island with breakfast bar, with sink unit built in. This unit could be L shaped with the hob further along it so you can cook and look out at the dining area/sofa areas easily while cooking
- er... that's about it

So, kitchen design gurus - how would you lay this out?




KTF

9,788 posts

149 months

Wednesday 23rd April 2014
quotequote all
Do you still use the dining room? If not, why not take out all of that wall to open the whole space up then you wont have the 'kink' in the wall?

singlecoil

33,313 posts

245 months

Wednesday 23rd April 2014
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Have you modelled it in CAD already? If so, do you want to share a .dxf or .dwg file?

TallMark

Original Poster:

593 posts

226 months

Wednesday 23rd April 2014
quotequote all
singlecoil said:
Have you modelled it in CAD already? If so, do you want to share a .dxf or .dwg file?
I was using SweetHome3D, and got as far as drawing out the existing kitchen, dining room and utility. The intention was to model the new design but its a catch 22, it took me a fair while to draw what I already have, and don't have a strong idea how it should look. So I've gone back to pen and paper for now.

Will upload the existing files when I get back home.

TallMark

Original Poster:

593 posts

226 months

Wednesday 23rd April 2014
quotequote all
KTF said:
Do you still use the dining room? If not, why not take out all of that wall to open the whole space up then you wont have the 'kink' in the wall?
Yes, we try and eat most of our main meals there. I guess there's no reason not to square that room off a bit provided it doesn't push the price up a huge chunk for a relatively minor change.

Mr Whippy

28,944 posts

240 months

Wednesday 23rd April 2014
quotequote all
I suppose a big issue is that single storey jut out across the back of the lounge and dining room, and how the new roof of the extension might interfere with the 1st floor window at the back, and the existing roof of the single storey extension thingy.

How the orangery roof will intersect with the old roof bit will be important to consider.


Either you tamper with it, in which case I'd say square off that entire kitchen/dining area into a new big square, or don't tamper with it, in which case you'd run an extending wall from the old dining room/kitchen wall boundary and out into the garden area.


Personally I'd do the bigger better one and have a nice big kitchen/dining/family area as it's vogue these days.

The only oddity really in that case would be two doors from the entrance hall into that room area.


Then again a big kitchen with a retained dining room might be useful. You could probably extend out the kitchen further at similar cost vs the other approach and get a similar feeling sized space but retain the nice architectural layout of the old design too (ie, no extra doors left hanging around, tinkering with that small roof etc)



When you say envision, what do you mean exactly? Do you want the photos editing to 'add in' the new bits you are considering?

Maybe even a quick 3d sketch by hand showing the rough proportional changes?

Or do you really feel you need to make the thing in 3D to be able to visualise how it might look in the end?


I'm happy to help with the easier approaches if you are really stuck just so you can get an idea of how it might look.

Dave

TallMark

Original Poster:

593 posts

226 months

Wednesday 23rd April 2014
quotequote all
Mr Whippy said:
How the orangery roof will intersect with the old roof bit will be important to consider.
Agreed. Haven't quite got that far yet. Still trying to picture it in our heads to decide if its something we want to pursue.

Mr Whippy said:
Either you tamper with it, in which case I'd say square off that entire kitchen/dining area into a new big square, or don't tamper with it, in which case you'd run an extending wall from the old dining room/kitchen wall boundary and out into the garden area.

Personally I'd do the bigger better one and have a nice big kitchen/dining/family area as it's vogue these days.
I think the "massive square" approach might be a bit much. More likely to go the "extend from the old dining/kitchen boundary" route if we couldn't figure out a way to make the roofline work.

Mr Whippy said:
When you say envision, what do you mean exactly? Do you want the photos editing to 'add in' the new bits you are considering?

Maybe even a quick 3d sketch by hand showing the rough proportional changes?

Or do you really feel you need to make the thing in 3D to be able to visualise how it might look in the end?
Ultimately I want to get to a 3D model. My experience of reading numerous of these threads before is that many posters suggest things I'd never have thought about in a million years. So before I get too far bogged down in 3D modelling (even in a quick 'n' dirty package), I'd like to talk over a few 2d layouts first.

Mr Whippy said:
I'm happy to help with the easier approaches if you are really stuck just so you can get an idea of how it might look.
That's much appreciated. Here's a quick sketch showing kitchen units in red and sofas in cyan. It's complete crap but I need to start somewhere. Critique away!



I'm also torn between a breakfast bar area, or a separate table in the orangery part which would be brighter. Two pics I like the look of:






TallMark

Original Poster:

593 posts

226 months

Wednesday 23rd April 2014
quotequote all
To put it another way, I see plenty of fabulous kitchens and extensions on PH, and I've got the opportunity here to make a big spacious room but I can't see how I get from the empty canvas to something practical with a real wow factor frown

singlecoil

33,313 posts

245 months

Wednesday 23rd April 2014
quotequote all
In my experience you can block out the layout pretty easily, but it's only when you start getting into details that the difficulties arise. And to resolve those, and to get a good idea of how the space will feel and work, you need 3D CAD

I could draw up the shell if you post the dimensions. If you do that you need to include stuff like the distance of doors and windows from corners, their widths, and also the height of the windows and the distance from sill to floor.

alock

4,224 posts

210 months

Wednesday 23rd April 2014
quotequote all
TallMark said:
This is not a very social breakfast bar. Everyone sitting in a line feels odd and means only two people would use it at a time.

I would also not have cabinets either side of the door from the hall. It will make the entrance seem like a corridor.

jonny996

2,603 posts

216 months

Wednesday 23rd April 2014
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That was our initial idea, then got some cock and bull story about an orangery not being fully liveable space and the need to have doors installed between the rooms to get building control sign off, then remove the doors. Decided that was a bad idea and have now gone down route of traditional extension wi bi fold door and velux.

Check out building regs for the glass U value

Mr Whippy

28,944 posts

240 months

Wednesday 23rd April 2014
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TallMark, I'm fairly happy to help out with some 3D and rendering stuff but obviously it's best to work towards that kinda stuff slowly and only when it's needed as it is time consuming.

I agree some kind of 3D does help convey the size of things much better than just a straight top-down plan. What might look ok in a plan could be cramped in reality unless you are so familiar with seeing plans and real-life versions of things so often you acclimatise yourself to the spatial realities of things direct from plans (probably estate agents and architects only?)

I'd say before you start modelling out anything accurately then it's best to decide about how the extension will actually work.

I'll try find some spare time tonight and do a few rough sketches so you can think about it a bit and what kinda end volumes you might be looking at.

Cheers

Dave

Tresco

516 posts

156 months

Wednesday 23rd April 2014
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I think by partially keeping the dining room and dining room window looking out onto the garden, and only having the orangery going part way across the back of the house it's going to look bitty, you'll spend a lot of money but I'm not sure you'll achieve the look you want.

My house is a very similar layout to yours and I've just submitted plans for a 10 metre extension across the back of the house, 3 metres deep internally, to end up with similar to the pictures that you like! Only difference is that I'll glaze the outside wall with sliding doors.

I'll PM you a copy of the plan if you wish.

Mr Whippy

28,944 posts

240 months

Wednesday 23rd April 2014
quotequote all
Bitty hehe

I agree that keeping the old dining window and partial overhanging roof but adding a new element off just the kitchen, it's a mix of architectural styles and it might not look as nice to some.

Personally I think retaining the original design cues is important, and just having a full-width rear extension so it looked uniform could look just as un-thoughtful but have cost a lot more money!

And in the end £/satisfaction level is different for everyone.



In the end I suppose this is why helping with some visualisations is good because you can decide what you like or don't like and consider costs at the same time.

I know someone on another thread of yours said that architects just add cost to a project, but a *good* architect who is worth their money will consider all these things for you and usually come up with a good design at the right price for you.

I've seen a lot of DIY stuff and you can really spot where architects were probably skipped because houses just look bland and stupid (ie 2 doors from hallway into kitchen type situations)

Dave

NorthDave

2,355 posts

231 months

Thursday 24th April 2014
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Looking at the pictures of the back of the house, and assuming you have the garden to handle it, I would go straight across the back. Maybe three meters deep with glass roof running all the way along. This will give you enough space for a seating area, large kitchen and informal eating area. Glazed double doors from the living room and dining room would let loads of light in to those rooms whilst allowing you to separate off if required?

I'd draw it if I had the time and skill!

I think the Orangery across part of it will never look right.

TallMark

Original Poster:

593 posts

226 months

Thursday 24th April 2014
quotequote all
NorthDave said:
Looking at the pictures of the back of the house, and assuming you have the garden to handle it, I would go straight across the back. Maybe three meters deep with glass roof running all the way along. This will give you enough space for a seating area, large kitchen and informal eating area. Glazed double doors from the living room and dining room would let loads of light in to those rooms whilst allowing you to separate off if required?

I'd draw it if I had the time and skill!

I think the Orangery across part of it will never look right.
I see what you're saying, but 2 problems with the "right across the back" approach:

1) Cost! We're on clay so need piles / deep foundations, so if we went across the back we'd be better off doing 2 storey. In either case the costs add up too quick.

2) We'd lose too much of the garden

I appreciate what you're saying though. We could do an "easy" extension (no issues with joining roofs) like this, but would it look terrible do you think?



PS Sorry I didn't have time to take measurements last night, really appreciate the offers of help so far thumbup

Mr Whippy

28,944 posts

240 months

Thursday 24th April 2014
quotequote all
Terrible is all relative.

You could argue that a big 'conservatory' across the back of the entire house is somewhat unimaginative.

But then it seems to be vogue right now to have these light open living areas that cover food, eating and lounging in one.

You could say that it'd detract from the existing architectural style to do that. In 10 years it might look terribly out-dated.


In the end this is why what you are doing is good because you can explore all these things and decide for sure.




Just taken a quick look at the plans, the dimensions seem a bit off. I've had to scale the image about 11.7% width wise to make the room sizes quoted match up.

Are the room sizes correct for internal wall to wall?


Cheers

Dave

Mr Whippy

28,944 posts

240 months

Thursday 24th April 2014
quotequote all
Just roughing it out for now.



This is just a straight extension off the kitchen, the same footprint of the existing kitchen added on.

I think the exterior appearance is fairly clear here.

Is that the kind of roof you'd have? I'm not sure of the proper name.

Dave

TallMark

Original Poster:

593 posts

226 months

Thursday 24th April 2014
quotequote all
Wow, thanks!

We're torn between 2 options, either the rectangular/pyramid style roof in the centre of an otherwise flat roof (not covering the whole roof, just a central section). OR, just have a gently sloping roof with skylights. Not sure if the latter is possible or if we'd need to keep the same slope as the main roof (which is very steep)

Tresco

516 posts

156 months

Thursday 24th April 2014
quotequote all
We were in a similar position to you earlier in the year, started playing with drawings with the intention of a small kitchen extension/orangery extending part way across the back of the house, approximately 18 sq metres, I guessed the build cost at £1200-1500.00 per sq metre, so say £30k all in.

The reason that we changed our minds and decided to extend right across the back was that we knew the part extension would never look quite right, the bit of patio that was left would be all but useless and that losing 3 metres of lawn was unfortunate but worth what we'd gain year round inside. I've done extensions in the past and made the mistake of saving a few £0000's only to end up re-doing them later on.

Of course the cost is a major consideration but in my view to spend £30k and end up with something just ok when for another £10-20k you can get your wow space seems a false economy, plus when you take into account house prices per sq ft in your area it's probably an investment!