Charles Church

[C Lee Farquar]

I went to a new CC development yesterday. Some of the houses had some 'timber' cladding which was an awful plastic affair.

It transpired the chimneys were also plastic, which you could clearly see in the direct sunlight. This will presumably look even worse as things weather.

Is it just me that this would bother? They used to build such impressive houses.

[Eleven]

C Lee Farquar said:

I went to a new CC development yesterday. Some of the houses had some 'timber' cladding which was an awful plastic affair.

It transpired the chimneys were also plastic, which you could clearly see in the direct sunlight. This will presumably look even worse as things weather.

Is it just me that this would bother? They used to build such impressive houses.

I watched with amusement as the plastic chimneys were lowered onto the roof trusses of the new builds near us. They sat like that for days with nothing but timber and fresh air underneath them.

I dislike fakery and plastic so yes it would bother me, especially if it's noticeable from ground level.

[Renovation]

The chimney would bother me too but we are in the minority.

Plastic wood which needs zero maintenance might appeal (I'd need to see it)

[greygoose]

I would expect better to be honest, though seeing how new builds are thrown up so quickly now I guess it isn't that surprising.

[Patch1875]

We decided against CC after our friends had major issues with theirs, snagging went on for nearly a year. They were told that persimmon sub contract virtually all the internal work on a fixed price so they just do it as quickly as they possibly can.

[jdw1234]

I seem to recall Charles Church's son is on here and has previously commented on this. He stated his dad would be very upset with what they are churning out now or something.

Here is the thread...

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=5&a...

[Fuzzy400]

The problem with construction these days is the end date of the build never changes so all delays the build incur have to be caught up at some time. This is why things are done in a rush and that's where the quality falls down. I've been on sites where the dry liners are putting up the plasterboard and the roof isn't weather tight only to see it the next day soaking wet after the nights rainfall. Does it get replaced? No chance, just left to go mouldy and then covered in plaster or paint at a later date.
Regarding GRP chimneys etc, I've seen some really good products that you would have to look closely at or tap to see it isn't the real thing but I've also seen some real rubbish that stand out like a sore thumb. I suppose the question is time, will it fade in 50 years time and look totally out of place.

[greygoose]

When we got a new house they had used ordinary plasterboard behind the tiles in the shower instead of the more expensive waterproof stuff, I suspect all builders cut corners and costs like this rather than it being a problem specific to CC.

[blueg33]

I am a former Director of Charles Church and I left about 6 months after the Persimmon takeover.

I left because in my opinion Persimmon completely missed the point of Charles Church and the values that made the Brand. There are very few properly recognised brands in housebuilding, Berkeley and Charles Church were probably the two best known.

One of the first jobs I had to do after the takeover was take Persimmon Housetypes and brief an architect on Charles Churchifying them. Ie giving them a slightly better suit of clothes and a nicer front door. Now they are just badge engineered Persimmon volume houses, but generally offer a higher spec than standard Persimmon and have more spent on kerb appeal.

Its not as though the Charles Church model was losing money either (well some regions were), my region was in profit every year. Our average house was 1800sqft and our largest new build was 4200sqft. Our apartments ranged from 500sqft 1 beds to 1800 sqft 3 beds.

I am still proud of the Charles Church sites we did and still go out of my way to look at them if I am in the area. Although I wasn't in sales, I showed David Ginola around a house is Little Aston Park (£1.2m about 13 years ago).

CC was a great Company, yes it had some difficulties after Charles died (in a Spitfire plane crash!), it was effectively saved by Beazer but they messed up a deal with Bryant Homes to merge and left themselves exposed to Persimmon.

Persimmon are a very aggressive volume builder, that really know what they are doing with everything other than upper market housebuilding. They are superb and balancing risk and reward.

If I could raise the equity, I would set up a housebuilder in the Charles Church image, but modern land and material prices mean that the equity required is huge and there would be no advantage of the Brand. (We could always add something to the selling price because of the brand).

If anyone has a spare £20m knocking about and fancies a go at building an upmarket new home brand then pm me

Edited by blueg33 on Friday 22 August 09:26

[jdw1234]

blueg33 said:

I am a former Director of Charles Church and I left about 6 months after the Persimmon takeover.

I left because Persimmon completely missed the point of Charles Church and the values that made the Brand. There are very few properly recognised brands in housebuilding, Berkeley and Charles Church were probably the two best known.

One of the first jobs I had to do after the takeover was take Persimmon Housetypes and brief an architect on Charles Churchifying them. Ie giving them a slightly better suit of clothes and a nicer front door. Now they are just badge engineered Persimmon volume houses.

Its not as though the Charles Church model was losing money either, my region was in profit every year. Our average house was 1800sqft and our largest new build was 4200sqft. Our apartments ranged from 500sqft 1 beds to 1800 sqft 3 beds.

I am still proud of the Charles Church sites we did and still go out of my way to look at them if I am in the area. Although I wasn't in sales, I showed David Ginola around a house is Little Aston Park (£1.2m about 13 years ago).

CC was a great Company, yes it had some difficulties after Charles died (in a Spitfire plane crash!), it was effectively saved by Beazer but they messed up a deal with Bryant Homes to merge and left themselves exposed to Persimmon.

Persimmon are a very aggressive volume builder, that really know what they are doing with everything other than upper market housebuilding.

If I could raise the equity, I would set up a housebuilder in the Charles Church image, but modern land and material prices mean that the equity required is huge and there would be no advantage of the Brand. (We could always add something to the selling price because of the brand).

If anyone has a spare £20m knocking about and fancies a go at building an upmarket new home brand then pm me

Do you work for a housebuilder/developer or do you now run your own firm out of interest?

[blueg33]

jdw1234 said:

Do you work for a housebuilder/developer or do you now run your own firm out of interest?

I work for a specialist developer/investor building homes for disabled people and old people, in addition to health centres, community hospitals, private hospitals, schools and regeneration projects

[jdw1234]

blueg33 said:

jdw1234 said:

Do you work for a housebuilder/developer or do you now run your own firm out of interest?

I work for a specialist developer/investor building homes for disabled people and old people, in addition to health centres, community hospitals, private hospitals, schools and regeneration projects

Ah, so you won't be insulted if I ask at what age did volume new builds become rubbish?

(I am assuming small volume stuff is still ok - Octagon etc?)

I.e. if you were buying a house, what age would you be looking at? I.e. when was the sweet spot you allude to above?

[Jobbo]

I was chatting to a solicitor for one of the volume housebuilders quite recently about these plastic chimneys. I don't like them myself, but apparently planners often require chimneys so that new builds fit in with the vernacular. However, building a real chimney adds time and material cost so the housebuilders offer to put false chimneys on; if the planners accept that, it saves money and increases profit.

I've not yet seen any new builds with plastic wisteria round the door, but give it time...

[blueg33]

jdw1234 said:

Ah, so you won't be insulted if I ask at what age did volume new builds become rubbish?

(I am assuming small volume stuff is still ok - Octagon etc?)

I.e. if you were buying a house, what age would you be looking at? I.e. when was the sweet spot you allude to above?

It all depends on which company and where in the country, plus different sites carried different specs depending on the market. But with CC for me the sweet spot is probably around 1998-2002 that should give the best mix of kerb appeal and internal spec.

Stuff like Octagon is great, plus low volume small upmarket developers

[jdw1234]

blueg33 said:

jdw1234 said:

Ah, so you won't be insulted if I ask at what age did volume new builds become rubbish?

(I am assuming small volume stuff is still ok - Octagon etc?)

I.e. if you were buying a house, what age would you be looking at? I.e. when was the sweet spot you allude to above?

It all depends on which company and where in the country, plus different sites carried different specs depending on the market. But with CC for me the sweet spot is probably around 1998-2002 that should give the best mix of kerb appeal and internal spec.

Stuff like Octagon is great, plus low volume small upmarket developers

Interesting. So would you say the typical £2-3m Surrey Octagon style new build (half to 1 acre plot, 4-6k sqft) is built to last?

[blueg33]

jdw1234 said:

Interesting. So would you say the typical £2-3m Surrey Octagon style new build (half to 1 acre plot, 4-6k sqft) is built to last?

Havent seen their latest specs. But in terms of structure you need to be looking for solid block internal walls upstairs and down, concrete floors upstairs and down, if its a traditional house a concrete staircase with oak banisters etc, or maybe a solid oak staircase (but this could creak more). If it has shower trays ask about tiling upstands, otherwise most of the rest is visible

[jdw1234]

Many thanks!

[crankedup]

CC was one of the quality stand-out big developers 40 years back, I can distinctly recall just how good their house building was. So it is saddening that they have seemingly succumbed to join the ranks of 'knock'em out' lowest denominator status.

[blueg33]

The early CC houses were quite clever. Snazzy expensive front elevations, cheap side and rear elevations, expensive looking kitchens and bathrooms, very cheap lowest possible spec skirtings, architraves etc. The edge was gained on the highly visible stuff, after that specs improved all round and solid first floors were the main selling point.

Its amazing how much more solid a house feels with concrete first floor and block internal walls, its also amazing how much that adds to the build price

[andye30m3]

I hate the plastic chimneys,

In the past I've used a plastic chimney which was finished with brick slips, proper pointing and lead flashings which did look a lot better than the really cheap plastic alternatives.

Edited by andye30m3 on Friday 22 August 14:40