Large crack, bowing wall
Discussion
Small update. I've instructed a structural engineer to look at this problem. I've gained permission from the vendor that if there's work involved in making a proper assessment, then that's OK to go ahead so long as it's made good, so I've given the engineer the contact of a builder friend of mine who will remove a brick or two under the direction of the engineer, so that the inside of the wall can be looked at.
Not cheap, but at least I'll know.
Not cheap, but at least I'll know.
While you have a man on site i would get him to take a couple of those hanging tiles of by that corner detail. It could uncover some better info than removeing a brick.
It will also give an idea whats behind the tiles and a possible look into the cavity.
I am surprised its cavity anyway due to your given date. There seems something quirky about that wall,taking on bord what someone said about the roof loading onto it maybe.
Give the inside wall(bedroom?) of that brick flank a tap or two and try to imagine how its constructed. Heath Robinson studwork maybe?
It will also give an idea whats behind the tiles and a possible look into the cavity.
I am surprised its cavity anyway due to your given date. There seems something quirky about that wall,taking on bord what someone said about the roof loading onto it maybe.
Give the inside wall(bedroom?) of that brick flank a tap or two and try to imagine how its constructed. Heath Robinson studwork maybe?
magooagain said:
While you have a man on site i would get him to take a couple of those hanging tiles off by that corner detail. It could uncover some better info than removing a brick.
It will also give an idea what's behind the tiles and a possible look into the cavity.
The engineer wants a couple of bricks removed on the large crack itself. With two bricks out, there should be sufficient room to work out how the wall was constructed as well as if there are tie issues, and also what the inner wall is made of. I've drawn his attention to the corner detail and the weirdness of it. He should be able to work out what's going on there, and also with the roof loading. He's seen the pics now - just waiting to hear when he's going to have a look at the house itself.It will also give an idea what's behind the tiles and a possible look into the cavity.
The brick tie people want 250+VAT to have a look, plus 1500+VAT to put the ties in, plus a structural engineer's report, plus scaffolding. So overall, if it's ties it needs, it'll be about 3.5K all in if we used those guys.
As we're using the structural engineer, it should be that we have a baseline on what work has to be done, so any quotes we get will be comparable.
EggsBenedict said:
magooagain said:
While you have a man on site i would get him to take a couple of those hanging tiles off by that corner detail. It could uncover some better info than removing a brick.
It will also give an idea what's behind the tiles and a possible look into the cavity.
The engineer wants a couple of bricks removed on the large crack itself. With two bricks out, there should be sufficient room to work out how the wall was constructed as well as if there are tie issues, and also what the inner wall is made of. I've drawn his attention to the corner detail and the weirdness of it. He should be able to work out what's going on there, and also with the roof loading. He's seen the pics now - just waiting to hear when he's going to have a look at the house itself.It will also give an idea what's behind the tiles and a possible look into the cavity.
The brick tie people want 250+VAT to have a look, plus 1500+VAT to put the ties in, plus a structural engineer's report, plus scaffolding. So overall, if it's ties it needs, it'll be about 3.5K all in if we used those guys.
As we're using the structural engineer, it should be that we have a baseline on what work has to be done, so any quotes we get will be comparable.
As promised, here's an update:
a) I received the survey document from the RICS surveyor. His assessment hasn't changed between the conversation I had with him and the doc, other than he now thinks the outer skin of the wall should be rebuilt from the 1st floor up.
b) The structural engineer came today, and as above, I'd arranged for a builder friend of mine to accompany him. As it happened, I was able to spend an hour or so there with the pair of them. The outcomes are:
i) It's a very early cavity wall, 2 brick skins with a 2" gap between them.
ii) The part at the front where the brick meets the wall tiles is where the cavity wall meets a timber studwork type wall. The bricks are therefore side on to a substantial corner post. The bricks are not tied to that, so that's allowed the pronounced bow. A brick from the corner was removed to ascertain.
iii) A couple of other bricks were removed along the crack, based on the engineer using a metal detector to find ties. From this, it was ascertained that these brick ties have corroded, and this is causing the bow.
iv) It's likely that the engineer's report will advise that brick tie/wall stabilisation is going to be the remedial action.
v) A conversation with my builder, he thought that the wall could be rebuilt fairly simply and inexpensively once the scaffold was there.
All in all, it's not horrible, but it's certainly something that we'll need to talk more with the vendors about, as it's not the only thing that has been found, and although the other things are more straightforward, the cumulative expense in putting them right is punchy, even if we limit to just the things that the surveyor says require 'ACTION' instead of just 'RECOMMENDATION'.
a) I received the survey document from the RICS surveyor. His assessment hasn't changed between the conversation I had with him and the doc, other than he now thinks the outer skin of the wall should be rebuilt from the 1st floor up.
b) The structural engineer came today, and as above, I'd arranged for a builder friend of mine to accompany him. As it happened, I was able to spend an hour or so there with the pair of them. The outcomes are:
i) It's a very early cavity wall, 2 brick skins with a 2" gap between them.
ii) The part at the front where the brick meets the wall tiles is where the cavity wall meets a timber studwork type wall. The bricks are therefore side on to a substantial corner post. The bricks are not tied to that, so that's allowed the pronounced bow. A brick from the corner was removed to ascertain.
iii) A couple of other bricks were removed along the crack, based on the engineer using a metal detector to find ties. From this, it was ascertained that these brick ties have corroded, and this is causing the bow.
iv) It's likely that the engineer's report will advise that brick tie/wall stabilisation is going to be the remedial action.
v) A conversation with my builder, he thought that the wall could be rebuilt fairly simply and inexpensively once the scaffold was there.
All in all, it's not horrible, but it's certainly something that we'll need to talk more with the vendors about, as it's not the only thing that has been found, and although the other things are more straightforward, the cumulative expense in putting them right is punchy, even if we limit to just the things that the surveyor says require 'ACTION' instead of just 'RECOMMENDATION'.
Edited by EggsBenedict on Tuesday 16th September 15:23
EggsBenedict said:
As promised, here's an update:
a) I received the survey document from the RICS surveyor. His assessment hasn't changed between the conversation I had with him and the doc, other than he now thinks the outer skin of the wall should be rebuilt from the 1st floor up.
b) The structural engineer came today, and as above, I'd arranged for a builder friend of mine to accompany him. As it happened, I was able to spend an hour or so there with the pair of them. The outcomes are:
i) It's a very early cavity wall, 2 brick skins with a 2" gap between them.
ii) The part at the front where the brick meets the wall tiles is where the cavity wall meets a timber studwork type wall. The bricks are therefore side on to a substantial corner post. The bricks are not tied to that, so that's allowed the pronounced bow. A brick from the corner was removed to ascertain.
iii) A couple of other bricks were removed along the crack, based on the engineer using a metal detector to find ties. From this, it was ascertained that these brick ties have corroded, and this is causing the bow.
iv) It's likely that the engineer's report will advise that brick tie/wall stabilisation is going to be the remedial action.
v) A conversation with my builder, he thought that the wall could be rebuilt fairly simply and inexpensively once the scaffold was there.
All in all, it's not horrible, but it's certainly something that we'll need to talk more with the vendors about, as it's not the only thing that has been found, and although the other things are more straightforward, the cumulative expense in putting them right is punchy, even if we limit to just the things that the surveyor says require 'ACTION' instead of just 'RECOMMENDATION'.
Glad to hear it appears to be capable of resolution. I would always urge a complete treatment primarily because of the law society terms of sale when and if you come to sell. You will be legally obliged to tell the buyers all the detail you have in the pre contract enquiries. Much better to be able to say I followed all the advice of xxx and he recommended yyy which s exactly what I had done by zzz builders supervised by xxx. The law change some years ago and the vendor is egally obliged to state of any matters of concern he has on a property for sale. Caveat emptor has gone. a) I received the survey document from the RICS surveyor. His assessment hasn't changed between the conversation I had with him and the doc, other than he now thinks the outer skin of the wall should be rebuilt from the 1st floor up.
b) The structural engineer came today, and as above, I'd arranged for a builder friend of mine to accompany him. As it happened, I was able to spend an hour or so there with the pair of them. The outcomes are:
i) It's a very early cavity wall, 2 brick skins with a 2" gap between them.
ii) The part at the front where the brick meets the wall tiles is where the cavity wall meets a timber studwork type wall. The bricks are therefore side on to a substantial corner post. The bricks are not tied to that, so that's allowed the pronounced bow. A brick from the corner was removed to ascertain.
iii) A couple of other bricks were removed along the crack, based on the engineer using a metal detector to find ties. From this, it was ascertained that these brick ties have corroded, and this is causing the bow.
iv) It's likely that the engineer's report will advise that brick tie/wall stabilisation is going to be the remedial action.
v) A conversation with my builder, he thought that the wall could be rebuilt fairly simply and inexpensively once the scaffold was there.
All in all, it's not horrible, but it's certainly something that we'll need to talk more with the vendors about, as it's not the only thing that has been found, and although the other things are more straightforward, the cumulative expense in putting them right is punchy, even if we limit to just the things that the surveyor says require 'ACTION' instead of just 'RECOMMENDATION'.
Edited by EggsBenedict on Tuesday 16th September 15:23
Better by far to make sure the repairs are comprehensive. Investment in the future.
EggsBenedict said:
iv) It's likely that the engineer's report will advise that brick tie/wall stabilisation is going to be the remedial action.
v) A conversation with my builder, he thought that the wall could be rebuilt fairly simply and inexpensively once the scaffold was there.
I'm with the builder there. Whilst it may be possible to stabilise the existing wall you would be left with a deformed wall and a lot of explanation required at sale time. Rebuilding with ties and restraint straps should allow you to sleep easily.v) A conversation with my builder, he thought that the wall could be rebuilt fairly simply and inexpensively once the scaffold was there.
Good luck with the negotiation; try to remember that the remedial cost of this work won't be much in comparison with the purchase price and that any other vendor will/should go through the same process as you - hopefully the estate agent will stress the latter.
TA14 said:
Good luck with the negotiation; try to remember that the remedial cost of this work won't be much in comparison with the purchase price and that any other vendor will/should go through the same process as you - hopefully the estate agent will stress the latter.
No, but the cost of remediation is a non-trivial percentage of the renovation budget, and we didn't go into the process thinking that there'd be chunky structural work to be done (again, bear in mind this wall issue not the only thing). I'm going to take a bit more advice on how to approach this.In terms of sale, I suppose (1) I'm not thinking of selling for a long time! (2) I have a dilemma in that if the structural engineer recommends remdial ties, and then I do something else, I don't have the 'audit trail' of strucutural engineer's report, and then certificate from a tie-ing company that shows them having followed what the engineer says.
EggsBenedict said:
In terms of sale, I suppose (1) I'm not thinking of selling for a long time! (2) I have a dilemma in that if the structural engineer recommends remdial ties, and then I do something else, I don't have the 'audit trail' of strucutural engineer's report, and then certificate from a tie-ing company that shows them having followed what the engineer says.
If you are worried about (2) then call the SE now, or e-mail him. He just needs to make his report clear and put in an either/or section. NB rebuilding the outer leaf will still require remedial wall ties to be fitted to the inner leaf (although it will allow a different, cheaper tie to be used) and will make the strapping easier to be done. So it's either ties and strapping OR ties, rebuild outer leaf and strapping.Eggs, remedial ties are probably being recommended as the least expensive or least time consuming or least destructive or whatever solution.
As I said before remedial ties etc, done properly, is time consuming and expensive in a dodgy substrate (you have to resin/grout into the inner wall, test for pull out strength on every tie, then fix in outer skin. Then you have to decide to leave/isolate/remove every existing tie.
So it may not be significantly cheaper than a partial/total rebuild, and that will give a far superior final outcome, in my opinion.
So as said above, ask the expert's opinion.
As I said before remedial ties etc, done properly, is time consuming and expensive in a dodgy substrate (you have to resin/grout into the inner wall, test for pull out strength on every tie, then fix in outer skin. Then you have to decide to leave/isolate/remove every existing tie.
So it may not be significantly cheaper than a partial/total rebuild, and that will give a far superior final outcome, in my opinion.
So as said above, ask the expert's opinion.
EggsBenedict said:
^^ Good advice guys.
Suggested to the SE that the wall maybe rebuild, he said 'i don't think it's that drastic', but that didn't rule it out.
I think need to get some proper quotes.
I think you do. Rebuilding the wall must be the preferred option IMO given the defects. Expensive possibly?. Likely to last very definitely. You should only rebuild that wall once: I would do it the best way you can.Suggested to the SE that the wall maybe rebuild, he said 'i don't think it's that drastic', but that didn't rule it out.
I think need to get some proper quotes.
As you now know the wall ties are definitely corroding and expanding, as your SE has said they will need isolating or removing. This is the most expensive and destructive part of the remedial work. You also end up with patchwork quilt pointing.
If it were me I'd rebuild the outer skin. You know the old ties will all be removed, it's much easier to fix and test new ones and the new wall will look and be 100% right.
If it were me I'd rebuild the outer skin. You know the old ties will all be removed, it's much easier to fix and test new ones and the new wall will look and be 100% right.
Emailed the SE to make sure he includes rebuilding as an option. Once I've got his report that shows what needs to be done, I'll get quotes for both options. I think rebuilding sounds like the way forward. I would like to find out what the score is around the roof. What happens when the outer skin is off? What holds the roof up?
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