Large crack, bowing wall
Discussion
Looking at buying a house that's going to need a fair bit of work. We've just had a survey, and mostly it's just 'tired old house' stuff, which is kind of obvious when you're buying a tired old house.
However, there's a nasty piece of news in that a wall in an extension that was added in 1922 has a large horizontal crack in it, and the whole wall from the first floor level is bowing outwards. The below explain it better than I could:
The recommendation is to get a cavity wall bloke to look at the wall with a borescope and a metal detector to see what there is in the way of brick ties in the wall. Then, either the wall will need retying or rebuilding from 1st floor up. The latter obvs v.expensive....
Anyone had any experience with this type of thing? Thoughts?
However, there's a nasty piece of news in that a wall in an extension that was added in 1922 has a large horizontal crack in it, and the whole wall from the first floor level is bowing outwards. The below explain it better than I could:
The recommendation is to get a cavity wall bloke to look at the wall with a borescope and a metal detector to see what there is in the way of brick ties in the wall. Then, either the wall will need retying or rebuilding from 1st floor up. The latter obvs v.expensive....
Anyone had any experience with this type of thing? Thoughts?
- Edited to sort pics out**
My sixth sense says I don't think it would be as comparatively expensive to rebuild, and it would give a far better visual finish and help future saleability too.
Remedial wall ties (assuming it is a cavity wall of course) are not that cheap, and you would probably need some longer helicoil type brick pinning too. As the cavity width will probably be all over the place, it will also be quite painstaking work making sure each individual remedial tie is a suitable length/fix, I would imagine.
Anyway, if you are keen on the house, it's time for some professional quotes and some renegotiation.
Remedial wall ties (assuming it is a cavity wall of course) are not that cheap, and you would probably need some longer helicoil type brick pinning too. As the cavity width will probably be all over the place, it will also be quite painstaking work making sure each individual remedial tie is a suitable length/fix, I would imagine.
Anyway, if you are keen on the house, it's time for some professional quotes and some renegotiation.
Mr GrimNasty said:
My sixth sense says I don't think it would be as comparatively expensive to rebuild, and it would give a far better visual finish and help future saleability too.
Remedial wall ties (assuming it is a cavity wall of course) are not that cheap, and you would probably need some longer helicoil type brick pinning too. As the cavity width will probably be all over the place, it will also be quite painstaking work making sure each individual remedial tie is a suitable length/fix, I would imagine.
Anyway, if you are keen on the house, it's time for some professional quotes and some renegotiation.
Additionally it looks like a hip all round and a bit of an odd detail at the corner. If you rebuild it you need to know that it won't move again. You need to know the lateral restraint to the wall and what the applied forces are plus how that wall fits into the structure of the house. Well, you may not need to know but someone needs to check it; time for a structural engineer.Remedial wall ties (assuming it is a cavity wall of course) are not that cheap, and you would probably need some longer helicoil type brick pinning too. As the cavity width will probably be all over the place, it will also be quite painstaking work making sure each individual remedial tie is a suitable length/fix, I would imagine.
Anyway, if you are keen on the house, it's time for some professional quotes and some renegotiation.
(PS I'd be interested to see the result of this one.)
TA14 said:
Mr GrimNasty said:
My sixth sense says I don't think it would be as comparatively expensive to rebuild, and it would give a far better visual finish and help future saleability too.
Remedial wall ties (assuming it is a cavity wall of course) are not that cheap, and you would probably need some longer helicoil type brick pinning too. As the cavity width will probably be all over the place, it will also be quite painstaking work making sure each individual remedial tie is a suitable length/fix, I would imagine.
Anyway, if you are keen on the house, it's time for some professional quotes and some renegotiation.
Additionally it looks like a hip all round and a bit of an odd detail at the corner. If you rebuild it you need to know that it won't move again. You need to know the lateral restraint to the wall and what the applied forces are plus how that wall fits into the structure of the house. Well, you may not need to know but someone needs to check it; time for a structural engineer.Remedial wall ties (assuming it is a cavity wall of course) are not that cheap, and you would probably need some longer helicoil type brick pinning too. As the cavity width will probably be all over the place, it will also be quite painstaking work making sure each individual remedial tie is a suitable length/fix, I would imagine.
Anyway, if you are keen on the house, it's time for some professional quotes and some renegotiation.
(PS I'd be interested to see the result of this one.)
Yeah, it is hip all round, it's a house that's been bolted onto quite a bit. Main part is Georgian, then other odds and sods added later.
We're speaking to these guys to come and have a look:
http://www.petercox.com/in-your-area/london-and-so...
http://www.petercox.com/homeowners/wall-stabilisat...
Not going to be cheap. Sigh.
We're speaking to these guys to come and have a look:
http://www.petercox.com/in-your-area/london-and-so...
http://www.petercox.com/homeowners/wall-stabilisat...
Not going to be cheap. Sigh.
Thats a very odd corner detail. I can't see how the outer is tied at all but it must be.
Would need to understand more about the construction and roof to think about why it might have moved.
Would strongly encourage you to engage an RICS building surveyor to review and spec out a solution before you cost anything.
Would need to understand more about the construction and roof to think about why it might have moved.
Would strongly encourage you to engage an RICS building surveyor to review and spec out a solution before you cost anything.
TimCrighton said:
Thats a very odd corner detail. I can't see how the outer is tied at all but it must be.
Would need to understand more about the construction and roof to think about why it might have moved.
Would strongly encourage you to engage an RICS building surveyor to review and spec out a solution before you cost anything.
Was a RICS building surveyor who gave us the heads up (and the photos). He's recommending we get a cavity wall man in: he can't see how the wall is constructed either. So this is why we've got the other guy on the go to be a bit more invasive.Would need to understand more about the construction and roof to think about why it might have moved.
Would strongly encourage you to engage an RICS building surveyor to review and spec out a solution before you cost anything.
The surveyor thinks it could be that the roof is loaded disproportionately on the outer skin of the wall, and this is why this is happening. I've not got the written report yet, but that's the story so far...
Looks like the wall ties have corroded lifting the brickwork, which in turn allows the outer brickwork to move away from the inner leaf.I had a very similar issue on a house a few years ago, the wall had to be rebuilt as the bow was too severe, it was a lot worse than this one though. The wall ties were 3 or 4 times as thick as they should have been due to the corrosion which had caused some very nasty horizontal cracks.
EggsBenedict said:
The surveyor thinks it could be that the roof is loaded disproportionately on the outer skin of the wall, and this is why this is happening. I've not got the written report yet, but that's the story so far...
My first thought as well. The roof construction could be forcing the wall out, especially if it isn't tied in to the other two walls. Corner detail just looks er, . . wrong! It looks newer than 1920s as well. Agree about getting boroscope in to the cavity, if indeed there is one. EggsBenedict said:
roofer said:
Fiver says the inner leaf is cinder block.
What is cinder block? Was that a common building material in the 20's? And if you're right, what is the consequence?roofer said:
Fiver says the inner leaf is cinder block.
Certainly a possibility. My concern would be why is the wall bowing and the lomgditudinal crack does suggest serious movement. Why? Cavity inspection establishing reality of construction and formal advice from a structural engineer would be my recommendations. Not a simple problem to resolve particularly with the unusual construction details. Best of luck to the OP.Steffan said:
Certainly a possibility. My concern would be why is the wall bowing and the lomgditudinal crack does suggest serious movement. Why? Cavity inspection establishing reality of construction and formal advice from a structural engineer would be my recommendations. Not a simple problem to resolve particularly with the unusual construction details. Best of luck to the OP.
the ties expand when starting to corrode , usually happens when they used black ash mortar which encourages the corrosion of the steel , the thickening of the rusting steel pushes the bricks apart causing the horizontal cracking and the leaf of bricks 'grows' and causes the bowing.on the picture I would expect to see the horizontal cracks at every 4th or 5th row of bricks if it was wall tie failure , there appears to be only one horizontal crack visible .
Peter Cox will insert boroscope and say wall tie failure whatever the cause , it aint cheap to be done by them , get a local builder to do the work , if needed.
structural engineer may say 'been like that donkey's years , old movement , just keep an eye on it , so thats the route I would take , survey by structural engineer , then remedial work by local builder - forget P Cox , they are not cheap.
bought my current property 18 years ago with horizontal cracks due to wall tie failure , its a 1930's detached , monitored the cracks for the past 17 years no further growth or bowing encountered ,had the whole house repointed last year didn't bother having wall ties removed/replaced, not many walls fall down due to wall tie failure . it CAN happen , but happy to take the risk it's not going to happen to my house.
wall tie failure is the new damp proof course required , semi scam IMO
If the suggestion is cavity wall failure then please get a brick removed so that a tie can be physically inspected. It's the corrosion within the mortar bed that matters, not the cavity.
As has been suggested it's very rare you'll get a clear report from someone with a borascope.
I used to do it for a living and genuine corrosion with expansion was rare, but needs sorting if they are the thicker fishtail ties. And yes it is the new DPC/radon.
As has been suggested it's very rare you'll get a clear report from someone with a borascope.
I used to do it for a living and genuine corrosion with expansion was rare, but needs sorting if they are the thicker fishtail ties. And yes it is the new DPC/radon.
dingg said:
the ties expand when starting to corrode , usually happens when they used black ash mortar which encourages the corrosion of the steel , the thickening of the rusting steel pushes the bricks apart causing the horizontal cracking and the leaf of bricks 'grows' and causes the bowing.
on the picture I would expect to see the horizontal cracks at every 4th or 5th row of bricks if it was wall tie failure , there appears to be only one horizontal crack visible .
This is exactly what the surveyor said about the corrosion on ties, that it would be more than one crack (there is a thinner one up nearer the roof) but on the other hand, because he can't see inside the wall, he was unwilling to speculate (can't blame him).on the picture I would expect to see the horizontal cracks at every 4th or 5th row of bricks if it was wall tie failure , there appears to be only one horizontal crack visible .
dingg said:
Peter Cox will insert boroscope and say wall tie failure whatever the cause , it aint cheap to be done by them , get a local builder to do the work , if needed.
Very good point - if what you have is a hammer, lots of problems look like nails. dingg said:
structural engineer may say 'been like that donkey's years , old movement , just keep an eye on it , so thats the route I would take , survey by structural engineer , then remedial work by local builder - forget P Cox , they are not cheap.
OK, have contacted on by mail. Will chase up tomorrow during office hours. Good idea.dingg said:
wall tie failure is the new damp proof course required , semi scam IMO
Didn't know this.C Lee Farquar said:
If the suggestion is cavity wall failure then please get a brick removed so that a tie can be physically inspected. It's the corrosion within the mortar bed that matters, not the cavity.
As has been suggested it's very rare you'll get a clear report from someone with a borascope.
I used to do it for a living and genuine corrosion with expansion was rare, but needs sorting if they are the thicker fishtail ties. And yes it is the new DPC/radon.
OK, when I call the structural engineer, I'll ask about brick removal.As has been suggested it's very rare you'll get a clear report from someone with a borascope.
I used to do it for a living and genuine corrosion with expansion was rare, but needs sorting if they are the thicker fishtail ties. And yes it is the new DPC/radon.
Edited by EggsBenedict on Monday 8th September 21:54
Don't get hung up about this wall tie issue. Even if you were to replace all of the wall ties you'd still be left with a distorted wall which would be weaker than the wall was originally and that may not have been strong enough. What you need is a structural engineer to look at the building and address the issues that I mentioned above.
TA14 said:
Don't get hung up about this wall tie issue. Even if you were to replace all of the wall ties you'd still be left with a distorted wall which would be weaker than the wall was originally and that may not have been strong enough. What you need is a structural engineer to look at the building and address the issues that I mentioned above.
Agreed - it's good advice and I'm taking it as per above.Gassing Station | Homes, Gardens and DIY | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff