Windows

[Esseesse]

I'm in the process of buying a 1970's house that will need thorough modernisation, although it's livable as it is.

It currently has Aluminium double glazed windows. Although I like wooden windows and I intend to turn this house into something quite attractive, it is no 8 bedroom Victorian villa so I am probably looking at uPVC windows (although I'll try to find the higher quality ones that I think can look ok). Does anyone have any recommendations? I've seen someone recommended Deceuninck before, any good?

Around the Aluminium windows there is a wooden frame. I think this is called the window reveal. Do more modern houses not have this (seem to go straight from brick->plastic window frame)? Or maybe modern houses have matching uPVC reveals so I just haven't noticed them? I want to do something with them/about them as they contribute to really pulling the appearance down... drab tiled front of house + dull Aluminium windows + nasty brown frames around the windows.

Thanks for reading, opinions welcome!

[untruth]

We have exactly the same thing on our house, 70s. The wood is just 'decorative', you can rip it out with the window. This is proven by the council owned houses on the estate with PVC windows without the wood frames.

[Gazzab]

Difficult to recommend Uvpc as I hate them. Surely the style of house will in many ways define what you need?
My house is 250 years old so we fitted wooden windows (mix of hard and soft wood) with a single 'bar' and fitted the super thin double glazing (slimlite) to ensure that they looked right (then painted them french gray). We also had lots of reclaim stone to buy to help with the window installs. So cost a small fortune... More than 20 windows plus new bay and new conservatory. House is so much better on every measure.

[Evoluzione]

Esseesse said:

I'm in the process of buying a 1970's house that will need thorough modernisation, although it's livable as it is.

It currently has Aluminium double glazed windows. Although I like wooden windows and I intend to turn this house into something quite attractive, it is no 8 bedroom Victorian villa so I am probably looking at uPVC windows (although I'll try to find the higher quality ones that I think can look ok). Does anyone have any recommendations? I've seen someone recommended Deceuninck before, any good?

Around the Aluminium windows there is a wooden frame. I think this is called the window reveal. Do more modern houses not have this (seem to go straight from brick->plastic window frame)? Or maybe modern houses have matching uPVC reveals so I just haven't noticed them? I want to do something with them/about them as they contribute to really pulling the appearance down... drab tiled front of house + dull Aluminium windows + nasty brown frames around the windows.

Thanks for reading, opinions welcome!

The window reveal is the internal part which connects the window frame to the flat face of the internal wall (i.e. crosses over the cavity), so I don't think you mean that.
If you have a window sat inside another frame it's known as a 'subframe'.

I believe alu windows were put into subframes to help stop any cold bridging, the early ones would drip with condensation in Winter they got so cold.

[Esseesse]

untruth said:

We have exactly the same thing on our house, 70s. The wood is just 'decorative', you can rip it out with the window. This is proven by the council owned houses on the estate with PVC windows without the wood frames.

Good to know thanks. Sounds like it could be like this, I'll have to have a closer inspection next time.

[Esseesse]

Gazzab said:

Difficult to recommend Uvpc as I hate them. Surely the style of house will in many ways define what you need?
My house is 250 years old so we fitted wooden windows (mix of hard and soft wood) with a single 'bar' and fitted the super thin double glazing (slimlite) to ensure that they looked right (then painted them french gray). We also had lots of reclaim stone to buy to help with the window installs. So cost a small fortune... More than 20 windows plus new bay and new conservatory. House is so much better on every measure.

I agree with you in general wrt PVC vs wood, unfortunately I don't have a small fortune but have not totally ruled wooden windows out yet. Would you put wooden windows in a house like this though for example (this is not the house, but not a million miles away)?

[Esseesse]

Evoluzione said:

The window reveal is the internal part which connects the window frame to the flat face of the internal wall (i.e. crosses over the cavity), so I don't think you mean that.
If you have a window sat inside another frame it's known as a 'subframe'.

I believe alu windows were put into subframes to help stop any cold bridging, the early ones would drip with condensation in Winter they got so cold.

Thanks for the info, good to know the reasoning.

[defblade]

Esseesse said:

I am probably looking at uPVC windows (although I'll try to find the higher quality ones that I think can look ok). Does anyone have any recommendations?

We've had french doors/windows from Residence9.

Very solid, doors haven't dropped a mm since fitting (despite the fitter saying he's used to coming back and adjusting french doors time and again with other makes) and so very warm compared to the rotten old wooden ones. They don't let woodlice, millipedes and slugs in, either Most people think they're wood; it's only the thicker vertical joins between the window and door units that gives it away a bit.

[wolfracesonic]

Esseesse said:

I agree with you in general wrt PVC vs wood, unfortunately I don't have a small fortune but have not totally ruled wooden windows out yet. Would you put wooden windows in a house like this though for example (this is not the house, but not a million miles away)?

I must admit that type of house is the ideal candidate for pvc. Everything else seems to be white pvc e.g facia/barge boards, guttering/fall pipes, so fitting timber windows would just be introducing an element of maintenance IMHO.

[Esseesse]

defblade said:

Esseesse said:

I am probably looking at uPVC windows (although I'll try to find the higher quality ones that I think can look ok). Does anyone have any recommendations?

We've had french doors/windows from Residence9.

Very solid, doors haven't dropped a mm since fitting (despite the fitter saying he's used to coming back and adjusting french doors time and again with other makes) and so very warm compared to the rotten old wooden ones. They don't let woodlice, millipedes and slugs in, either Most people think they're wood; it's only the thicker vertical joins between the window and door units that gives it away a bit.

Interesting, I think I saw them before and thought they looked good but lost the link. Made by Dekko who also make the ones I mentioned above. I wonder how expensive...

[Spudler]

wolfracesonic said:

I must admit that type of house is the ideal candidate for pvc. Everything else seems to be white pvc e.g facia/barge boards, guttering/fall pipes, so fitting timber windows would just be introducing an element of maintenance IMHO.

Same as ^^.
Timber frames won't make the house look/feel any better for it.

[defblade]

Esseesse said:

Interesting, I think I saw them before and thought they looked good but lost the link. Made by Dekko who also make the ones I mentioned above. I wonder how expensive...

A bit more than cheapies/average, 10-20% IIRC, not horrendous (or we wouldn't have them!)

Edited to say: wife informs me now about 50% higher than the cheapest....

Edited by defblade on Thursday 16th October 22:46

[GP335i]

Look at the offerings from munster joinery etc. They have a lot of nice options!

[Esseesse]

defblade said:

Esseesse said:

Interesting, I think I saw them before and thought they looked good but lost the link. Made by Dekko who also make the ones I mentioned above. I wonder how expensive...

A bit more than cheapies/average, 10-20% IIRC, not horrendous (or we wouldn't have them!)

Edited to say: wife informs me now about 50% higher than the cheapest....

Edited by defblade on Thursday 16th October 22:46

Thanks, I've just been to see the man in a nearby window place that do Residence 9. He says they're about twice the price (i.e. 100% more) of a Rehau window which I understand is a good quality but not crazy priced window, certainly not cheap. He said that for example they've recently done the 4 front windows (large) of a house at about £7k. They had some cheaper windows there too (Duraflex IIRC) and he said the Rehau is about 50% more than them.

Anyway, I'm going to send my measurements to him and see what their quote is like, but I suspect he's quoting me the mugs rate to begin with?

[Esseesse]

I'm now considering a modern Aluminium window (Smart Alutherm), as I feel the low profile is probably particularly appropriate to a 1970's house. As ever somewhat comes down to price, but we will see.

Also I'm tempted by the grey you can get them in as I will be rendering (it's currently got horrid tiles) the front of the house and I think this can look great. A slightly less safe option though than inoffensive regular white windows.

[Gazzab]

When choosing my window colours I painted up lots of 30 cm x 5 cm pieces of wood with the various tester pots and settled on French Gray from middle class F&B. It really works with my house and the honey colour of the stones. The colour changes depending on the light and time of year etc. It works so well that at least 5 other houses in my village now have the same colour. So I'd paint up lots of samples using a good quality paint.

[Esseesse]

I'm now living in the house in question, and IMO the performance of these old aluminium double glazed windows really doesn't seem to live up to what many doom-mongers would tell you.

Internally they're either (white) powder coated alu, or have a PVC/plastic layer. The only thing that lets them down really is they look old fashioned/drab, so I'm tempted to refurbish them and paint the frames. The handles (cockspur) are old fashioned but look to be very cheap and easy to replace myself, I'm guessing they just unscrew.

If I go down this route, there are a few large panes that have failed and need to be replaced. Is there an option of putting a better performing DG unit in or are the better ones always thicker (and therefore won't fit)?

Has anyone tried painting anodised aluminium? Is a special primer required? I'm not a total novice with spray painting, but I suppose using a can might be preferable as doing upstairs with a compressor might be tricky? Unless I just put the compressor in the bedrooms with the air line running out of the window...

[p1esk]

I haven't read all the comments here (sorry), but what was that about slim window units? Are we talking about a small air gap, say 6 or 8 mm or so, because if we are, doesn't that markedly reduce the effectiveness of double glazing?

My impression has been that we should aim to have an air gap of not less than about 20 mm if we want the DG to be reasonably effective.

[Gazzab]

p1esk said:

I haven't read all the comments here (sorry), but what was that about slim window units? Are we talking about a small air gap, say 6 or 8 mm or so, because if we are, doesn't that markedly reduce the effectiveness of double glazing?

My impression has been that we should aim to have an air gap of not less than about 20 mm if we want the DG to be reasonably effective.

I'm not condoning the technology or performance but its what I've got albeit from another supplier/manufacturer.
http://www.slimliteglass.co.uk/

[TA14]

Gazzab said:

p1esk said:

I haven't read all the comments here (sorry), but what was that about slim window units? Are we talking about a small air gap, say 6 or 8 mm or so, because if we are, doesn't that markedly reduce the effectiveness of double glazing?

My impression has been that we should aim to have an air gap of not less than about 20 mm if we want the DG to be reasonably effective.

I'm not condoning the technology or performance but its what I've got albeit from another supplier/manufacturer.
http://www.slimliteglass.co.uk/

Making the gap smaller does reduce the effectiveness: http://www.pilkington.com/~/media/Pilkington/Site%... but a 6mm air gap dg unit will still perform much better than a single pane of glass for noise and heat insulation and the prevention of condensation. Probably not worth the effort for most post WW1 houses.