Leaking inwards-opening UPVC windows - what to do?
Discussion
I'm a bit green when it comes to builders and home improvements, so I need some help/advice.
We live in an 1880s Victorian house and had our cellar converted in spring this year.
In the process, our builder re-excavated the original light-wells and fitted some UPVC windows which were specified to open inwards because the light wells don't extend far enough from the house for the windows to open outwards.
I thought this was a simple requirement, but it resulted in all sorts of delays and excuses from the window supplier as though it was the most unusual, bespoke request they'd ever had. However, we got there in the end.
However, last week it rained pretty heavily here and I noticed that one of the windows had leaked. My builder came back round this morning to look at it and identified the cause to be a small hole, which allows any water building up on the inner sill of the window to drain. The problem is that it appears to drain INWARDS!
Picture:
Can anyone who knows about UPVC windows advise how this is usually done? Surely not like this...
Also of note, there are trickle vents at the top of each window which I originally thought didn't have a control to open/close them, but whilst looking into the leak issue today I've just noticed that the controls are on the outside of the windows.
This makes me think the window supplier might have just given us standard outward-opening windows with the handles fitted on the outside.
How should the window drains work? What course of action should I take?
We live in an 1880s Victorian house and had our cellar converted in spring this year.
In the process, our builder re-excavated the original light-wells and fitted some UPVC windows which were specified to open inwards because the light wells don't extend far enough from the house for the windows to open outwards.
I thought this was a simple requirement, but it resulted in all sorts of delays and excuses from the window supplier as though it was the most unusual, bespoke request they'd ever had. However, we got there in the end.
However, last week it rained pretty heavily here and I noticed that one of the windows had leaked. My builder came back round this morning to look at it and identified the cause to be a small hole, which allows any water building up on the inner sill of the window to drain. The problem is that it appears to drain INWARDS!
Picture:
Can anyone who knows about UPVC windows advise how this is usually done? Surely not like this...
Also of note, there are trickle vents at the top of each window which I originally thought didn't have a control to open/close them, but whilst looking into the leak issue today I've just noticed that the controls are on the outside of the windows.
This makes me think the window supplier might have just given us standard outward-opening windows with the handles fitted on the outside.
How should the window drains work? What course of action should I take?
To me, that looks like they have taken a UPVC window and just fitted it the wrong way round. Looks like there is a window ledge is on the inside as well.
Have you got ant more pictures of it from the inside and outside?
I would speak to the builder as the fist port of call.
Have you got ant more pictures of it from the inside and outside?
I would speak to the builder as the fist port of call.
Edited by KTF on Monday 20th October 12:32
"This makes me think the window supplier might have just given us standard outward-opening windows with the handles fitted on the outside."
Yes, that is exactly correct.
Hard to tell from your pic but it looks like the cill that has been fitted to the inside as well.
You should have got "tilt and turn" windows.
Yes, that is exactly correct.
Hard to tell from your pic but it looks like the cill that has been fitted to the inside as well.
You should have got "tilt and turn" windows.
It certainly looks to me like you have been supplied a standard outward opening window that has been fitted backwards.
Is the beading that holds the glazing in place outside also?
The hole into the frame is correct and shouldn't really matter that is on the inner edge as there should be a weep hole on the external face that allows the water drain out of the frame profile.
Normally you will have these on the outside.
I had a similar issue on an inward opening window at home that was caused by the manufacturer not installing the external weep hole above. When i drilled a small hole from the outside i had a jet of water as the frame drained itself.
Is the beading that holds the glazing in place outside also?
The hole into the frame is correct and shouldn't really matter that is on the inner edge as there should be a weep hole on the external face that allows the water drain out of the frame profile.
Normally you will have these on the outside.
I had a similar issue on an inward opening window at home that was caused by the manufacturer not installing the external weep hole above. When i drilled a small hole from the outside i had a jet of water as the frame drained itself.
Wow, thanks for the replies guys - I posted this on a DIY forum as well thinking PH might not be the best place for advice on this. No replies on there yet!
He then called the MD of the window company to arrange for him to come round, but didn't get through. I had a go at the manager earlier this year when we kept being fobbed off with delays/spec problems in the first place, so my builder said he'd escalate straight to him as he's already familiar with the job.
At the moment, I'm not sure how much my builder knows - he did a lot of work at our place and has been extremely reasonable and accommodating the whole time - but I'm not sure whether or not he knew these windows weren't right at the time and just fitted them anyway.
More photos:
Inside:
Right-half open:
Both halves open:
Close-up of external beading, seals and hinge:
Close-up of inside glass:
External shot:
RE: tilt and turn - I'm familiar with these, but should I have known to request those specifically? I hoped my builder and/or the window supplier would advise me about the type of windows needed to meet the requirement of them opening inwards...
Thanks again for all the help/suggestions guys. Let me know if you need any more photos.
KTF said:
To me, that looks like they have taken a UPVC window and just fitted it the wrong way round. Looks like there is a window ledge is on the inside as well.
Have you got ant more pictures of it from the inside and outside?
I would speak to the builder as the fist port of call.
I spoke to the builder this morning. At first he suggested putting vaseline around the seal which I said was ridiculous.Have you got ant more pictures of it from the inside and outside?
I would speak to the builder as the fist port of call.
He then called the MD of the window company to arrange for him to come round, but didn't get through. I had a go at the manager earlier this year when we kept being fobbed off with delays/spec problems in the first place, so my builder said he'd escalate straight to him as he's already familiar with the job.
At the moment, I'm not sure how much my builder knows - he did a lot of work at our place and has been extremely reasonable and accommodating the whole time - but I'm not sure whether or not he knew these windows weren't right at the time and just fitted them anyway.
More photos:
Inside:
Right-half open:
Both halves open:
Close-up of external beading, seals and hinge:
Close-up of inside glass:
External shot:
tvrtim said:
Hard to tell from your pic but it looks like the cill that has been fitted to the inside as well.
You should have got "tilt and turn" windows.
The trim on the inside is just architrave (if that's the right word for it) which the builder bought separately in strips to give us a decent finish - there wasn't really room for a proper internal window ledge so the windows are finished with around 3-4cm of matching PVC all round to make it look neat.You should have got "tilt and turn" windows.
RE: tilt and turn - I'm familiar with these, but should I have known to request those specifically? I hoped my builder and/or the window supplier would advise me about the type of windows needed to meet the requirement of them opening inwards...
dickymint said:
They or you should have specified tilt and turn profile. When I was in the business (manufacturer)many years ago this was the only option.
So if someone ordered 'inward-opening windows' from your company, am I right to assume you would have automatically given them tilt and turn?barryrs said:
Is the beading that holds the glazing in place outside also?
The hole into the frame is correct and shouldn't really matter that is on the inner edge as there should be a weep hole on the external face that allows the water drain out of the frame profile.
Yes the beading is on the outside. There are no weep holes on the outside face.The hole into the frame is correct and shouldn't really matter that is on the inner edge as there should be a weep hole on the external face that allows the water drain out of the frame profile.
dickymint said:
Your other issue maybe security! External or internally glazed?
This (and barryrs') point about the beading is something I hadn't thought of at all - yes the beading is on the outside. I presume that means someone could simply remove the beading with a chisel and then lift the glass out. Great point and surely grounds alone for the windows not being fit for purpose. Is it possible that the glass is secured in some other way even though the beading is on the outside?Thanks again for all the help/suggestions guys. Let me know if you need any more photos.
Yes, an internally beaded window has been fitted "back to front" so it
is now externally beaded. It is a security issue, especially given the
location of the window.
Any reasonably skilled builder would know that this is wrong. Any reasonable window supplier or manufacturer would not have supplied this window for this application ie; getting around it by fitting the handles on the wrong side.
I think someone has pulled a fast one.
Foppo, you cant just turn the window round as the handles would then be on the outside. Or do you mean a NEW window?
From looking at your pics there seems to be plenty of room for a NEW conventional window to open out. This would be the way forward. As to who pays for it - over to you.
is now externally beaded. It is a security issue, especially given the
location of the window.
Any reasonably skilled builder would know that this is wrong. Any reasonable window supplier or manufacturer would not have supplied this window for this application ie; getting around it by fitting the handles on the wrong side.
I think someone has pulled a fast one.
Foppo, you cant just turn the window round as the handles would then be on the outside. Or do you mean a NEW window?
From looking at your pics there seems to be plenty of room for a NEW conventional window to open out. This would be the way forward. As to who pays for it - over to you.
Edited by tvrtim on Monday 20th October 15:05
tvrtim said:
Yes, an internally beaded window has been fitted "back to front" so it
is now externally beaded. It is a security issue, especially given the
location of the window.
Any reasonably skilled builder would know that this is wrong. Any reasonable window supplier or manufacturer would not have supplied this window for this application ie; getting around it by fitting the handles on the wrong side.
I think someone has pulled a fast one.
Foppo, you cant just turn the window round as the handles would then be on the outside. Or do you mean a NEW window?
From looking at your pics there seems to be plenty of room for a NEW conventional window to open out. This would be the way forward. As to who pays for it - over to you.
OK thanks for the advice. There are actually three lightwells, this is the largest of them - the others definitely don't have enough space for a window to swing open. Fortunately I had padlock eyeholes welded to the grates above each lightwell so at least I can secure the property whilst this is worked out.is now externally beaded. It is a security issue, especially given the
location of the window.
Any reasonably skilled builder would know that this is wrong. Any reasonable window supplier or manufacturer would not have supplied this window for this application ie; getting around it by fitting the handles on the wrong side.
I think someone has pulled a fast one.
Foppo, you cant just turn the window round as the handles would then be on the outside. Or do you mean a NEW window?
From looking at your pics there seems to be plenty of room for a NEW conventional window to open out. This would be the way forward. As to who pays for it - over to you.
herewego said:
Do you need an opening window there?
Yes - although the cellar hasn't been converted to building regs (we're in a terrace house and the cost/aggro of digging down to make the ceilings high enough wasn't worth it) and therefore technically can't be used for bedroom space, I wanted the windows to open wide enough to be used as fire escapes so that the rooms can be safely slept in on the odd occasion we have more people staying over than we have spare space upstairs.The MD of the window supplier just called me.
He said that he spoke to the manufacturer earlier today about how the drain-holes in the windows should work. Apparently, the frames are produced through an automated process and the drain holes were probably put there by accident due to it being 'a bit of a complicated order'.
We were on the phone quite a while during which time he said that putting the beading on the outside of the window is the way it always used to be done, and that it's relatively recently that this changed. He said some window suppliers still do this as standard, and that many conservatories are done like this.
Is any of the above true? My instincts tell me no, but I'm not in the trade so what would I know...
He said that he spoke to the manufacturer earlier today about how the drain-holes in the windows should work. Apparently, the frames are produced through an automated process and the drain holes were probably put there by accident due to it being 'a bit of a complicated order'.
We were on the phone quite a while during which time he said that putting the beading on the outside of the window is the way it always used to be done, and that it's relatively recently that this changed. He said some window suppliers still do this as standard, and that many conservatories are done like this.
Is any of the above true? My instincts tell me no, but I'm not in the trade so what would I know...
mr shifty said:
The MD of the window supplier just called me.
He said that he spoke to the manufacturer earlier today about how the drain-holes in the windows should work. Apparently, the frames are produced through an automated process and the drain holes were probably put there by accident due to it being 'a bit of a complicated order'.
bHe said that he spoke to the manufacturer earlier today about how the drain-holes in the windows should work. Apparently, the frames are produced through an automated process and the drain holes were probably put there by accident due to it being 'a bit of a complicated order'.
ks.mr shifty said:
We were on the phone quite a while during which time he said that putting the beading on the outside of the window is the way it always used to be done, and that it's relatively recently that this changed. He said some window suppliers still do this as standard, and that many conservatories are done like this.
Years ago maybe until they realised what a security issue this posed and changed the design accordingly.The above may or not be true, but you are still left with a leaky window. RE. the beads: Some window systems did and still utilize external beads, but they use an external bead AND a separate rubber gasket internally that compresses the glass against the bead making it extremely difficult to remove the bead without going inside and removing the gasket first, if that makes sense. The beads you have look like they're meant to be inside, have no loose gasket and therefore would easy to pry out with a chisel or similar. If you do have to swap the windows would a top hung type be suitable if there are no egress requirements. Tilt and turns are crap!
An easy option might be to reverse the cill providing there's no holes drilled in it, and replace the window as it was sitting it on a good gob of silicone at each end of the cill. Cill usually has a 5mm upstand on the internal side (was the outside, now the inside) so any water draining under the frame would find it's way out.
Correct option would be to rip it all out and do it properly..
eta Doh - openers would still be wrong way round, and I bet they have drain holes into your room as well.
Correct option would be to rip it all out and do it properly..
eta Doh - openers would still be wrong way round, and I bet they have drain holes into your room as well.
Edited by andy43 on Monday 20th October 18:49
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