No Completion Certificate on 4 yr old house

No Completion Certificate on 4 yr old house

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rsv696

Original Poster:

474 posts

142 months

Saturday 15th November 2014
quotequote all
Just after a quick bit of advice from you knowledgeable lot please!

Basically, we were about to exchange contracts on a 4 year old house yesterday when it came to light that it had never been issued with a completion certificate. The reason apparently is that it has never been air pressure tested, therefore couldn't be signed off as complete by the local council. We were left wondering whether we should continue with the purchase, having spent a year trying to organise a move.

The house is on a new development which is still not completed. Apparently the building company (a well known national company beginning with the letter 'P') only ever asks for randomly selected houses to be tested & this wasn't one of them.

We don't need a mortgage & intend staying way beyond the expiry of the 10 year NHBC warranty. We're still keen to exchange & complete this week, but is this wise? We're considering negotiating a £500 reduction in the offer price to cover the application to the council & the air pressire test, which we'll have done once we've moved in. The house appears well made & likely to pass without issue. What do you think? Any opinions much appreciated.

Terminator X

14,921 posts

203 months

Saturday 15th November 2014
quotequote all
Run and don't look back.

TX.

Simpo Two

85,147 posts

264 months

Saturday 15th November 2014
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My house was never pressure tested. But that was in 1988 and the world was more sensible before eco-toss was invented. Amazingly, my house still works.

V8RX7

26,763 posts

262 months

Saturday 15th November 2014
quotequote all
It is the norm for National Builders to only have to test a few homes - in exactly the same way as Car makers only crash test a few cars - the rest are assumed to have been built the same.

So the reason given makes no sense to me - call the developer on Monday.

surveyor

17,767 posts

183 months

Saturday 15th November 2014
quotequote all
Not every house had to be tested...

Part L requires sample testing and sampling rates are applied to groups of dwellings that are defined as similar based on specific criteria described within the Approved Document.

Part L 2010 and 2013 increases the amount of testing required to 3 tests or 50% of each dwelling type, whichever is less. The criteria for defining similar dwelling types has also expanded such that there are now likely to be more tests required per development than was the case under Part L 2006.

Please note: Under Part L 2010 and 2013, plots that are not tested attract a penalty of +2.0 m3/(m2.h)@ 50 Pa in the as-built SAP, so if the target is 10 m3(h.m2)@ 50 Pa, a result of 8m3 /( h.m2) @ 50 Pa or better is needed from the tested plots to allow those units not tested to pass.

http://www.nhbc.co.uk/Productsandservices/Consulta...

I think the Completion Certificate is an issue that the vendor needs to resolve. I'm not completely convinced that pressure testing is the reason it has not been issued.

ClaphamGT3

11,269 posts

242 months

Saturday 15th November 2014
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It should be possible to purchase indemnity insurance against any future enforcement action relatively cheaply. The vendor should pay for this and the conveyancing solicitors can easily wrap it into the conveyance.

anonymous-user

53 months

Saturday 15th November 2014
quotequote all
Exactly, your solicitor should have mentioned indemnity insurance.

So long as this can be secured, and that there are no other major problems, and that this is really the house you want, then I don't see why you shouldn't proceed.

Terminator X

14,921 posts

203 months

Saturday 15th November 2014
quotequote all
Are you guys nuts, the house has no completion certificate. Likely that mortgage company won't lend on it etc.

TX.

PS OP doesn't need a mortgage but 99% of the population will do eg what will a future owner do?

Edited by Terminator X on Saturday 15th November 22:06

Little Lofty

3,275 posts

150 months

Saturday 15th November 2014
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If it hasn't been signed off by NHBC then I doubt it will have a 10 year warranty, seems very strange that the developer has been able to sell a home that hasn't been singed off. Did the present owners pay cash? Pretty sure a lender won't release money until they see the completion certificate for a new build. If it is down to the air pressure test make sure it's done before you sign as it could turn into a nightmare if it fails.

TA14

12,722 posts

257 months

Saturday 15th November 2014
quotequote all
rsv696 said:
What do you think?
Terminator X said:
Run and don't look back.
V8RX7 said:
It is the norm for National Builders to only have to test a few homes - in exactly the same way as Car makers only crash test a few cars - the rest are assumed to have been built the same.
So the reason given makes no sense to me - call the developer on Monday.
surveyor said:
Not every house had to be tested ... I'm not completely convinced that pressure testing is the reason it has not been issued.
Little Lofty said:
seems very strange
I wonder what has gone on. OP please keep us updated.

eliot

11,363 posts

253 months

Sunday 16th November 2014
quotequote all
Its like buying a cat c car, not an issue in itself but a hasle when you come to sell it.
So get it sorted before you buy it - dont be hasty or inpatient.

TA14

12,722 posts

257 months

Sunday 16th November 2014
quotequote all
eliot said:
Its like buying a cat c car, not an issue in itself but a hasle when you come to sell it.
So get it sorted before you buy it - dont be hasty or inpatient.
Sort of. Most if not all cat C's were OK when new. Like buying a new car that was crashed before it left the factory and no one will say that it's ever been OK.

MintSprint

335 posts

113 months

Sunday 16th November 2014
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V8RX7 said:
It is the norm for National Builders to only have to test a few homes...
Partially true.

At least one of each 'type' (more for greater numbers of houses built) has to be tested, with remaining houses of equivalent 'type' then being allowed to base their figure on the tested ones.

Note that the rules behind what constitutes an equivalent 'type' are not straightforward... nothing to do with identical plan arrangement, necessarily - you are allowed a variation of (from memory) 15% on floor area and +/-1 'significant penetrations' (doors, windows, flues etc.), so quite different designs can often be classed as the same 'type' for air testing purposes.

But you have to test the first of each 'type' built, so there should be no reason that subsequent equivalent types shouldn't be able to be issued with a Completion Certificate.

I'd be asking how the original purchaser managed to get CML on the property, without the necessary paperwork being in place.

Also note that if there is any potential that you might need retrospective air test, there is a strong possibility of it failing and needing expensive and disruptive remedial work. We ran into problems a few times where we'd built show houses on sites, but not air tested them or sought a completion certificate until we were ready to sell them, when the rest of the site was complete. Problem is, after 2 years of central heating causing shrinkage cracks though the structure and people drilling holes in walls to hang things on, they will generally leak like a sieve...

Edited to add:

Chapter and verse on Air Testing, including determination of dwelling 'type', is available in this very useful document.


Edited by MintSprint on Sunday 16th November 11:43

jason61c

5,978 posts

173 months

Sunday 16th November 2014
quotequote all
MintSprint said:
Partially true.

At least one of each 'type' (more for greater numbers of houses built) has to be tested, with remaining houses of equivalent 'type' then being allowed to base their figure on the tested ones.

Note that the rules behind what constitutes an equivalent 'type' are not straightforward... nothing to do with identical plan arrangement, necessarily - you are allowed a variation of (from memory) 15% on floor area and +/1 'significant penetrations' (doors, windows, flues etc.), so quite different designs can often be classed as the same 'type' for air testing purposes.

But you have to test the first of each 'type' built, so there should be no reason that subsequent equivalent types shouldn't be able to be issued with a Completion Certificate.

I'd be asking how the original purchaser managed to get CML on the property, without the necessary paperwork being in place.

Also note that if there is any potential that you might need retrospective air test, there is a strong possibility of it failing and needing expensive and disruptive remedial work. We ran into problems a few times where we'd built show houses on sites, but not air tested them or sought a completion certificate until we were ready to sell them, when the rest of the site was complete. Problem is, after 2 years of central heating causing shrinkage cracks though the structure and people drilling holes in walls to hang things on, they will generally leak like a sieve...

Edited to add

Chapter and verse on Air Testing, including determination of dwelling 'type', is available in this very useful document.


Edited by MintSprint on Sunday 16th November 10:27
is that not one of the most stupid things to have to test/pass?

V8RX7

26,763 posts

262 months

Sunday 16th November 2014
quotequote all
jason61c said:
is that not one of the most stupid things to have to test/pass?
Yes - they ask you to seal all the holes - then make you install extraction fans.

If you build it too well, then you get issues with condensation.

MintSprint

335 posts

113 months

Sunday 16th November 2014
quotequote all
V8RX7 said:
jason61c said:
is that not one of the most stupid things to have to test/pass?
Yes - they ask you to seal all the holes - then make you install extraction fans.

If you build it too well, then you get issues with condensation.
Sort of. It's certainly nonsensical in that long-term performance drops off dramatically due to shrinkage cracking, etc., and it's daft if you make a building airtight, only to then have extract ventilation without heat recovery.

The intention behind it is good, though, and to be fair it wouldn't be practicable to have an annual 'MOT' for houses that checked that their efficiency wasn't diminishing with age (it's one thing to have to replace the catalytic converter on your Mondeo; quite another to have to strip all the plasterboard out of your house so that you can chase down and seal cracks).

As standards continue to increase, however, it's likely that heat recovery on the ventilation will become a necessity, to meet Regs, in which case ultra-high levels of airtightness will start to make more sense.

On the specific point of condensation, you need to recognise the difference between airtightness and vapour breathability, which are quite different things.



At the moment, it has to be said that we've got a major problem with the gap between predicted and actual energy performance (all aspects; not just airtightness related). This has been recognised, and is being researched, but we're a long way from having all the answers. It's fairly obvious that the current SAP assessment methodology doesn't cut the mustard, though.

This report, published earlier this year, discusses some of the key issues.


rsv696

Original Poster:

474 posts

142 months

Sunday 16th November 2014
quotequote all
Thanks for all your replies chaps.

The developer has confirmed that NOT all properties are tested and states it would NOT be able to release a property for sale without some form of completion certificate being in place. It seems likely that a certificate IS in existence for the property somewhere, and the developer is looking into this as a matter of urgency. Those we have spoken to so far from the company claim they have not come up against this problem before. There is definitely a 10 year NHBC warranty in place for the house.

The current owner WAS able to secure a mortgage on the property, which is surprising, although the LTV is obviously not known. He is unable to produce a completion certificate. I agree it's his responsibility to sort it out, but he's out of the country, speaks poor English, couldn't be relied upon to sit the correct way on a toilet seat & time is running out.

The Council does not have a certificate listed against the property, therefore is not in a position to issue a copy.

All 3 solicitors in the chain (including ours) are suggesting we "take a view on it". Ours is quietly urging caution, possibly to cover her back. She mentioned indemnity insurance, but didn't go into any detail. Having read up on it, I'm unclear whether we can go down that route now that we've approached the council. She advised that within 6 years (ie 10 years after the build date) the lack of a certificate would likely cease to be an issue, but says it's ultimately a decision for us.

From our point of view, it's a house for life & we're fed up with the whole process, having been let down by countless numpties for an entire year. We're at risk of losing our buyers for the second time in 5 months, facing the prospect of remarketing our place for a third time & we're minded to go ahead. The house is in good condition with no obvious defects 4 years after construction.

Tomorrow will be spent frantically trying to resolve this issue & I'll update with the result...


toohuge

3,429 posts

215 months

Sunday 16th November 2014
quotequote all
I understand your concerns. Whilst I don't have a huge amount of knowledge of the UK system things don't seem to add up on the completion certificate side of things.....

I would check to see whether the council boundaries have changed since the home was built - the local authority is responsible for the issuance of building certificates and if there is no original on file (and there should be) then I would look to see whether an alternative authority had issued one.

I would be surprised that the original closing documents would not have at least included a copy of the certificate when the deed was transferred. - So perhaps the builders / developers solicitor has a copy on file from the original closing?

I know that you have your home for sale and this is a huge pain - but I would be concerned about the lack of completion certificate if I were purchasing home that should have one.

MintSprint

335 posts

113 months

Sunday 16th November 2014
quotequote all
rsv696 said:
There is definitely a 10 year NHBC warranty in place for the house.
...

The Council does not have a certificate listed against the property, therefore is not in a position to issue a copy.
If it has an NHBC certificate, then the Building Regulations will have been done by the NHBC, too.

See their FAQs, here

NHBC FAQs said:
Can I download a separate Building Control final certificate?

There is no need for a separate Building Control final certificate; if NHBC have performed the Building Control this will be confirmed on the warranty certificate.
My first guess would be a breakdown in lodgement (by the NHBC) or logging (at the Local Authority end) of the certification.

I can't imagine that it would have been able to get past CML with the first purchaser without a Building Control Certificate; mortgage lenders are usually pretty hot about these things, and will not release the money until the property has been 'finalled'.

Have you (or your solicitor) talked to the NHBC?

Your solicitor should know these things...


Edited by MintSprint on Sunday 16th November 15:29

V8RX7

26,763 posts

262 months

Sunday 16th November 2014
quotequote all
As above when I worked for Developers we ONLY used the NHBC.

When I self built they weren't competitive so I used the Council and a Build Store Warranty with completion Certs from both