Underfloor Heating Question...
Discussion
So you really just need to establish if the pump is running, you will feel it and it will be hot ish or like i said remove the cap and put a small flat bladed screw diver onto the spindle to see if its spinning .
If its not you can take the black top off and check voltage across live and neutral, if you have power and its not running then the pump has gone down.
Has it ever run ? if not i suspect something is a miss with the install
ss
From what i can see from the photos, your manifold is made arse about face. The pump is pushing water the wrong way round your system. Water will go through the flow indicators (top barrel) the wrong way but not very well and they will always read zero.
The way to correct this is to turn the pump the right way up and the swap the flow pipework (with the thermostatic head on) with the sensor so you'll end up with the flow connected to the bottom left of the manifold and the sensor connected to the top left. The sensor is on the end of the wire running from the thermostatic head.
Check everything is open, flow indicators on the top barrel, manual heads on the bottom barrel and the return (white cap bottom right) is open. If the pump works and the flow and return pipework from the boiler are the right way round then your system should work.
The way to correct this is to turn the pump the right way up and the swap the flow pipework (with the thermostatic head on) with the sensor so you'll end up with the flow connected to the bottom left of the manifold and the sensor connected to the top left. The sensor is on the end of the wire running from the thermostatic head.
Check everything is open, flow indicators on the top barrel, manual heads on the bottom barrel and the return (white cap bottom right) is open. If the pump works and the flow and return pipework from the boiler are the right way round then your system should work.
If you turn the pump around so the arrow is pointing up, make sure the flow from the boiler is connected to the bottom left of the manifold otherwise it won't blend correctly and you'll have too higher temperature water flowing through your floor which isn't good. Also I notice from your picture that the thermostatic head is set to number 5. Turn it to number 4 which will give you a flow temperature of 50-55C which is what you want, any higher and you could cause damage to your floor and floor finishes.
Hi Chaps,
should all of the flow meters be reading the same value? I ask because I've just moved into a house that has 8 (individually thermostatically controlled) UFH rooms, and some of the rooms seem to heat better then others - and when I look at the flow meters, there's (perhaps?) a correlation between low floor rate and crappy room. (but I might be making that up - [ETA because does the flow rate vary over time or is it binary as in the valve is open or closed??]).
is there an ideal flow rate to set them at?
somewhat unrelated question - given that the all the controll gubbins are in a cupboard downstairs, should the flow rate be set differently for circuits pumping to upstairs?
totally unrelated question: over winter, is it likely to be more efficient to leave the heating on 24/7 or having a morning/night on schedule?
apologies for the numpty questions....
ETA2: I've just solved one of the problems - the bathroom being comparitively cold. I've just realised that the thermostat for the bathroom is outside of the bathroom in the hallway, and so is presumably shutting off when the hallway is warm (even though the bathroom is freezing). rubbish.
should all of the flow meters be reading the same value? I ask because I've just moved into a house that has 8 (individually thermostatically controlled) UFH rooms, and some of the rooms seem to heat better then others - and when I look at the flow meters, there's (perhaps?) a correlation between low floor rate and crappy room. (but I might be making that up - [ETA because does the flow rate vary over time or is it binary as in the valve is open or closed??]).
is there an ideal flow rate to set them at?
somewhat unrelated question - given that the all the controll gubbins are in a cupboard downstairs, should the flow rate be set differently for circuits pumping to upstairs?
totally unrelated question: over winter, is it likely to be more efficient to leave the heating on 24/7 or having a morning/night on schedule?
apologies for the numpty questions....
ETA2: I've just solved one of the problems - the bathroom being comparitively cold. I've just realised that the thermostat for the bathroom is outside of the bathroom in the hallway, and so is presumably shutting off when the hallway is warm (even though the bathroom is freezing). rubbish.
Edited by PBDirector on Friday 19th December 19:27
Which just goes to show how underfloor heating should not be controlled with on/off valves.
The flow meters (usually on the top manifold) can be turned down to reduce the flow to that circuit - the temperature in that area is a result of how long that circuit is and how fast the flow is, the longer the circuit and lower the flow - the relatively cooler it will be.
Once the flows have been set, control should be by turning the whole thing on and off - not messing around with binary controls.
Individual thermostatic valves would be another way of doing it.
The flow meters (usually on the top manifold) can be turned down to reduce the flow to that circuit - the temperature in that area is a result of how long that circuit is and how fast the flow is, the longer the circuit and lower the flow - the relatively cooler it will be.
Once the flows have been set, control should be by turning the whole thing on and off - not messing around with binary controls.
Individual thermostatic valves would be another way of doing it.
PBDirector said:
Hi Chaps,
should all of the flow meters be reading the same value? I ask because I've just moved into a house that has 8 (individually thermostatically controlled) UFH rooms, and some of the rooms seem to heat better then others - and when I look at the flow meters, there's (perhaps?) a correlation between low floor rate and crappy room. (but I might be making that up - [ETA because does the flow rate vary over time or is it binary as in the valve is open or closed??]).
is there an ideal flow rate to set them at?
somewhat unrelated question - given that the all the controll gubbins are in a cupboard downstairs, should the flow rate be set differently for circuits pumping to upstairs?
totally unrelated question: over winter, is it likely to be more efficient to leave the heating on 24/7 or having a morning/night on schedule?
apologies for the numpty questions....
ETA2: I've just solved one of the problems - the bathroom being comparitively cold. I've just realised that the thermostat for the bathroom is outside of the bathroom in the hallway, and so is presumably shutting off when the hallway is warm (even though the bathroom is freezing). rubbish.
Hi PBshould all of the flow meters be reading the same value? I ask because I've just moved into a house that has 8 (individually thermostatically controlled) UFH rooms, and some of the rooms seem to heat better then others - and when I look at the flow meters, there's (perhaps?) a correlation between low floor rate and crappy room. (but I might be making that up - [ETA because does the flow rate vary over time or is it binary as in the valve is open or closed??]).
is there an ideal flow rate to set them at?
somewhat unrelated question - given that the all the controll gubbins are in a cupboard downstairs, should the flow rate be set differently for circuits pumping to upstairs?
totally unrelated question: over winter, is it likely to be more efficient to leave the heating on 24/7 or having a morning/night on schedule?
apologies for the numpty questions....
ETA2: I've just solved one of the problems - the bathroom being comparitively cold. I've just realised that the thermostat for the bathroom is outside of the bathroom in the hallway, and so is presumably shutting off when the hallway is warm (even though the bathroom is freezing). rubbish.
Edited by PBDirector on Friday 19th December 19:27
Here are the answers to your questions that will hopefully get your UFH working correctly.
All the flow indicators should not read the same, this is all down to the heat output required in each room due to heat loss. On design the heat losses are worked out for each room thus giving the heat output required. You've noticed that the rooms with low readings are the rooms that are struggling for heat. When commissioning the UFH system it is very difficult to set a room with a set L/min of lets say 0.3 L/min as this is such a fine line between on and off. The best way around this is to set all thermostats to their highest reading so every circuit is calling for heat. Then if you have the drawing with all the flow rates for the circuits, set all the flow rates to the designed rate. Once you've done this, the circuits with really low flow rates, open these up more to get more flow and if the ones with a higher required rate drop a little, then open them up a bit more to get their required rate. This is called ballancing the system but basically you want as much flow as possible to get the best output. Imagine if you only had one circuit on a really low flow rate, then by the time the water gets to the end of the circuit its dissipated all its heat thus being cold, where if you have a higher flow rate, the pipe is still the same temp but reaches the end of the circuit.
Regarding setting your system for winter, it is best to have the system running all the time and control the temp of the room by the stat. For it to run really efficiently then its best to have whats called a set back stat which basically means you can have it running at lets say 21C during the day and 16C during the night thus keeping heat in the floor during hours when its not really required so its not costing you a fortune to get the the floor back up to temperature every day.
Does your bathroom have a separate circuit or is it part of the hallway circuit. If it's designed correctly it should have its own circuit and the thermostat will be in hallway but will have a sensor in the bathroom reading the air temperature of that room and you control the temperature of that room by the stat in the hallway.
HTH
Fuzzy400 said:
From what i can see from the photos, your manifold is made arse about face. The pump is pushing water the wrong way round your system. Water will go through the flow indicators (top barrel) the wrong way but not very well and they will always read zero.
The way to correct this is to turn the pump the right way up and the swap the flow pipework (with the thermostatic head on) with the sensor so you'll end up with the flow connected to the bottom left of the manifold and the sensor connected to the top left. The sensor is on the end of the wire running from the thermostatic head.
Check everything is open, flow indicators on the top barrel, manual heads on the bottom barrel and the return (white cap bottom right) is open. If the pump works and the flow and return pipework from the boiler are the right way round then your system should work.
Thanks for this Fuzzy, sounds like I could have some serious installation issues then? This does sound plausible as I've turned the pump to max and could hear a change in tone so I guess that is working fine. The way to correct this is to turn the pump the right way up and the swap the flow pipework (with the thermostatic head on) with the sensor so you'll end up with the flow connected to the bottom left of the manifold and the sensor connected to the top left. The sensor is on the end of the wire running from the thermostatic head.
Check everything is open, flow indicators on the top barrel, manual heads on the bottom barrel and the return (white cap bottom right) is open. If the pump works and the flow and return pipework from the boiler are the right way round then your system should work.
Sounds like I will need to get the installer back, but as he put it in I guess he thinks it's correct!!
Hi Fuzzy,
Massively appreciate you taking the time to write that reply, cheers
- especially as your reply shows I knew even less that I thought I did! Sometimes I really wish I’d learned a trade instead of going to Uni. They should make a combined-trade/DIY gap year compulsary for uni students!
Massively appreciate you taking the time to write that reply, cheers
- especially as your reply shows I knew even less that I thought I did! Sometimes I really wish I’d learned a trade instead of going to Uni. They should make a combined-trade/DIY gap year compulsary for uni students!Fuzzy400 said:
All the flow indicators should not read the same, this is all down to the heat output required in each room due to heat loss. On design the heat losses are worked out for each room thus giving the heat output required.
Ah - so I guess that explains why my initial guess of "just set all the flow rates to the highest and let the thermostat open/close the valve appropriately" view is nieve.Fuzzy400 said:
Regarding setting your system for winter, it is best to have the system running all the time and control the temp of the room by the stat. For it to run really efficiently then its best to have whats called a set back stat which basically means you can have it running at lets say 21C during the day and 16C during the night thus keeping heat in the floor during hours when its not really required so its not costing you a fortune to get the the floor back up to temperature every day.
That makes sense. What happens if I don’t have a back stat and I can’t fit one? The landlord has fitted a mega 2x/day, 7 day/week heating controller. — shall I just set it to (effectively) on all the time and all the zone thermostats to 20?Fuzzy400 said:
Does your bathroom have a separate circuit or is it part of the hallway circuit. If it's designed correctly it should have its own circuit and the thermostat will be in hallway but will have a sensor in the bathroom reading the air temperature of that room and you control the temperature of that room by the stat in the hallway.
Every room is its own circuit. Every room has its own thermostatic controller (stupidly positioned next to the light switch so that you fumble around in the dark looking for the light switch and inadvertently turn the room up to 35C!). As there don’t appear to be any separate air temperature sensors in any of the rooms, I’m going to guess that the temperature sensor is built into the termostatic control unit. — hence the (cold) bathroom switching off when the hallway’s up to temperature.Fuzzy400 said:
HTH
It really does, thank you!Edited by PBDirector on Saturday 20th December 14:52
Hi PB
It was no problem at all spending a little time to try and help you get your UFH working correctly. UFH is such a simple thing as long as its designed and controlled correctly. I'm such a sad bugger that I enjoy my job so much, I'll quite happily help anyone out to get their UFH system working correctly, so they can benefit from a very comfortable heat output.
If you haven't got a 'set back' stat then just set the stats to 20-21C and that will work fine but it may be a bit warm for the night time but due to the design but there's not alot you can do with that.
I'm surprised the bathroom doesn't have a sensor in it. Have a good look round in there and look for a square plate the same size as a stat but with no dial on in.
Dave
It was no problem at all spending a little time to try and help you get your UFH working correctly. UFH is such a simple thing as long as its designed and controlled correctly. I'm such a sad bugger that I enjoy my job so much, I'll quite happily help anyone out to get their UFH system working correctly, so they can benefit from a very comfortable heat output.
If you haven't got a 'set back' stat then just set the stats to 20-21C and that will work fine but it may be a bit warm for the night time but due to the design but there's not alot you can do with that.
I'm surprised the bathroom doesn't have a sensor in it. Have a good look round in there and look for a square plate the same size as a stat but with no dial on in.
Dave
Fuzzy400 said:
Regarding setting your system for winter, it is best to have the system running all the time and control the temp of the room by the stat. For it to run really efficiently then its best to have whats called a set back stat which basically means you can have it running at lets say 21C during the day and 16C during the night thus keeping heat in the floor during hours when its not really required so its not costing you a fortune to get the the floor back up to temperature every day.
That makes sense. What happens if I don’t have a back stat and I can’t fit one? The landlord has fitted a mega 2x/day, 7 day/week heating controller. — shall I just set it to (effectively) on all the time and all the zone thermostats to 20?Gassing Station | Homes, Gardens and DIY | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff