Rewire - going rate? with builders in house concurrently?
Discussion
Hi All,
I'm trying to sort out a dispute between a family member and an electrician who has rewired their 3 bed terraced house and garage. The electrician was engaged via the builder who is doing a full refurb of the house.
The electrician quoted for the works relating to the kitchen refurb, a new consumer unit, and safety cert for letting the property. On arrival he advised that the house should be fully rewired as it would be cheaper than rectifying the faults in the wiring. Unfortunately a revised quote was not obtained and money wasn't discussed, but he was instructed (via the builder) to proceed with what was necessary. We were expecting a bill perhaps 150% - 200% of the original quote, but the bill is around 600%.
The Consumers' Association suggest rewiring a 3 bed should come in at an average price of £3200+vat, maximum of £4000+vat and 10 man days. We are looking at over double the average and 18 man days. The only complications of this job is that the builders and some furniture were in the house at the time of the rewire, so things needed a bit of moving about (by the builders, but I guess wasting a bit of time for the spark). The builders did do all the chasing out and replastering so that's not factored in. The electrician is arguing that this job was exceptional, but surely a rewire is never straightforward as it's always in an old building, potentially with some of the owners' stuff in the way? I'm trying to judge what is reasonable and get the matter settled, so it would be really helpful if anyone has any guidance on a reasonable time/sum for this sort of work?
I'm trying to sort out a dispute between a family member and an electrician who has rewired their 3 bed terraced house and garage. The electrician was engaged via the builder who is doing a full refurb of the house.
The electrician quoted for the works relating to the kitchen refurb, a new consumer unit, and safety cert for letting the property. On arrival he advised that the house should be fully rewired as it would be cheaper than rectifying the faults in the wiring. Unfortunately a revised quote was not obtained and money wasn't discussed, but he was instructed (via the builder) to proceed with what was necessary. We were expecting a bill perhaps 150% - 200% of the original quote, but the bill is around 600%.
The Consumers' Association suggest rewiring a 3 bed should come in at an average price of £3200+vat, maximum of £4000+vat and 10 man days. We are looking at over double the average and 18 man days. The only complications of this job is that the builders and some furniture were in the house at the time of the rewire, so things needed a bit of moving about (by the builders, but I guess wasting a bit of time for the spark). The builders did do all the chasing out and replastering so that's not factored in. The electrician is arguing that this job was exceptional, but surely a rewire is never straightforward as it's always in an old building, potentially with some of the owners' stuff in the way? I'm trying to judge what is reasonable and get the matter settled, so it would be really helpful if anyone has any guidance on a reasonable time/sum for this sort of work?
They really should of got a price before giving the go ahead.
It's difficult to give a price without seeing the property, as well as if extra sockets put in, led Downlights etc.
For a 3 bed, usually I quote around the £3-4K mark inc vat.
Was he actually in the house for 18 full days?
£6K+vat sounds very expensive if it's not a very big house!
It's difficult to give a price without seeing the property, as well as if extra sockets put in, led Downlights etc.
For a 3 bed, usually I quote around the £3-4K mark inc vat.
Was he actually in the house for 18 full days?
£6K+vat sounds very expensive if it's not a very big house!
Edited by R1 Indy on Saturday 28th February 10:00
Who is he working for, you or the builder? If it's the builder, then dependent on your contract (you have one with your builder I take it) you will be able to pay him (the builder) a fair and reasonable cost (based on the previous quote) and it'll be up to the electrician to justify his costs to the builder.
If he's working for you, you could argue that you never instructed him to proceed so he should chase the builder for additional costs beyond a fair and reasonable cost of the works completed as it was the builder that instructed him.
Looks to me like he quoted the job, played a bit of a fast one, decided to work it as a time and line job and throw a bill in at the end to make a quick buck.
Has he or the builder got any paperwork to substantiate his time on site?
edit; just read that the builder engaged him. I would be going back to the builder with your findings and telling him to provide some back up as to why it took longer / cost more than is claimed. And remind him that you have no contract with the electrician, it's up to the builder to manage him on site. Builder is passing the buck on this one.
If he's working for you, you could argue that you never instructed him to proceed so he should chase the builder for additional costs beyond a fair and reasonable cost of the works completed as it was the builder that instructed him.
Looks to me like he quoted the job, played a bit of a fast one, decided to work it as a time and line job and throw a bill in at the end to make a quick buck.
Has he or the builder got any paperwork to substantiate his time on site?
edit; just read that the builder engaged him. I would be going back to the builder with your findings and telling him to provide some back up as to why it took longer / cost more than is claimed. And remind him that you have no contract with the electrician, it's up to the builder to manage him on site. Builder is passing the buck on this one.
Edited by Nuisance_Value on Saturday 28th February 10:38
Thanks. Yes, lesson learned on getting a quote, believe me!
2 men for 81 hours each, over 9 days, is what he is claiming. It's not a big house though does have a detached garage (though the armoured cable was just tested, not replaced). There weren't many additions, just a few extra sockets, FSUs and hob supply in the kitchen and a couple of security lights on the back and garage, and all of those were in the original scope of work. The rest of the house has just been like for like. There was some 'quirky' wiring in it before but that was just ripped out and replaced.
Apparently he's a NICEIC Domestic Installer. It sounds as though that means he's restricted to certifying his own work as safe but not existing? In which case he couldn't have approved the original install even if it were good, and was always going to have to do a full rewire. Not sure we've understood the NICEIC correctly though, but that's the gist of what they have told my relative.
2 men for 81 hours each, over 9 days, is what he is claiming. It's not a big house though does have a detached garage (though the armoured cable was just tested, not replaced). There weren't many additions, just a few extra sockets, FSUs and hob supply in the kitchen and a couple of security lights on the back and garage, and all of those were in the original scope of work. The rest of the house has just been like for like. There was some 'quirky' wiring in it before but that was just ripped out and replaced.
Apparently he's a NICEIC Domestic Installer. It sounds as though that means he's restricted to certifying his own work as safe but not existing? In which case he couldn't have approved the original install even if it were good, and was always going to have to do a full rewire. Not sure we've understood the NICEIC correctly though, but that's the gist of what they have told my relative.
Nuisance_Value said:
Who is he working for, you or the builder? If it's the builder, then dependent on your contract (you have one with your builder I take it) you will be able to pay him (the builder) a fair and reasonable cost (based on the previous quote) and it'll be up to the electrician to justify his costs to the builder.
If he's working for you, you could argue that you never instructed him to proceed so he should chase the builder for additional costs beyond a fair and reasonable cost of the works completed as it was the builder that instructed him.
Looks to me like he quoted the job, played a bit of a fast one, decided to work it as a time and line job and throw a bill in at the end to make a quick buck.
Has he or the builder got any paperwork to substantiate his time on site?
edit; just read that the builder engaged him. I would be going back to the builder with your findings and telling him to provide some back up as to why it took longer / cost more than is claimed. And remind him that you have no contract with the electrician, it's up to the builder to manage him on site. Builder is passing the buck on this one.
I don't think the builder will finish the job if I get him involved. In the contract/scope of work with the builder he was to liaise with the electrician but get the electrician to quote separately. Therefore we don't have a contract with the electrician, but nor with the builder for doing the electrics. It worked fine that way with the plasterer, but we can see now why it's not a good way of managing it. I agree the builder has let us down badly on it but I suspect our contract with him re electrics is too tenuous to hold him legally accountable, and it will cause a whole load more hassle and expense re finishing the works if I triedIf he's working for you, you could argue that you never instructed him to proceed so he should chase the builder for additional costs beyond a fair and reasonable cost of the works completed as it was the builder that instructed him.
Looks to me like he quoted the job, played a bit of a fast one, decided to work it as a time and line job and throw a bill in at the end to make a quick buck.
Has he or the builder got any paperwork to substantiate his time on site?
edit; just read that the builder engaged him. I would be going back to the builder with your findings and telling him to provide some back up as to why it took longer / cost more than is claimed. And remind him that you have no contract with the electrician, it's up to the builder to manage him on site. Builder is passing the buck on this one.
Edited by Nuisance_Value on Saturday 28th February 10:38
The builder says the electrician was indeed on site for the 9 days. The electrician has given copies of invoices that substantiate him being local to site on about 5 days.
Thanks for all responses. That gives me some guidance as to what to offer to settle.
Jamp said:
Thanks. Yes, lesson learned on getting a quote, believe me!
2 men for 81 hours each, over 9 days, is what he is claiming. It's not a big house though does have a detached garage (though the armoured cable was just tested, not replaced). There weren't many additions, just a few extra sockets, FSUs and hob supply in the kitchen and a couple of security lights on the back and garage, and all of those were in the original scope of work. The rest of the house has just been like for like. There was some 'quirky' wiring in it before but that was just ripped out and replaced.
Apparently he's a NICEIC Domestic Installer. It sounds as though that means he's restricted to certifying his own work as safe but not existing? In which case he couldn't have approved the original install even if it were good, and was always going to have to do a full rewire. Not sure we've understood the NICEIC correctly though, but that's the gist of what they have told my relative.
If he's changed the CU he can test & NICEIC cert the wiring, domestic installer enrolment won't let you carry out an NICEIC headed EICR (formerly periodic test/ "safety" cert on existing wiring) which is ridiculous as it's pretty much the same set of testing processes once the boards on the wall. Technically you could unscrew and refit the same CU and then NICEIC cert it though! I'm currently having to go full scope NIC as some of my clients want NIC periodics which is a pain as I do a little commercial/industrial which means my annual inspections will be awkward as you have to have some for inspection as part of full scope NIC approved contractor. The whole way it's run is tilted towards bigger business rather than the little guy IMVHO but thats a rant for another day.2 men for 81 hours each, over 9 days, is what he is claiming. It's not a big house though does have a detached garage (though the armoured cable was just tested, not replaced). There weren't many additions, just a few extra sockets, FSUs and hob supply in the kitchen and a couple of security lights on the back and garage, and all of those were in the original scope of work. The rest of the house has just been like for like. There was some 'quirky' wiring in it before but that was just ripped out and replaced.
Apparently he's a NICEIC Domestic Installer. It sounds as though that means he's restricted to certifying his own work as safe but not existing? In which case he couldn't have approved the original install even if it were good, and was always going to have to do a full rewire. Not sure we've understood the NICEIC correctly though, but that's the gist of what they have told my relative.
As for your price dispute it sounds steep and proceeding without an agreement is foolish on all parts; but from a sparks point of view, what did the builder ask of him? Dayrate? "Panic panic drop everything this needs to be done yesterday I'm being held up?" There's a lot of people out there you'd be perfectly entitled to charge 2x the going rate because of the way they handle things even though generally you don't. I've crossed swords with a few builders who inform you they're ready for a piece of first fix by ringing you out the blue and going "well we're waiting to board the ceiling when you gonna put the wires in", then when you rehash everything to get there a day later it's half covered and twice as much work etc etc etc. Most of these builders subsequently end up with pet b
h second rate sparks who put up with this crap rather than decent ones, then complain loudly what a load of dheads sparkies arewhen they get a second rate job, or try to bodge it all themselves.Edited by hairyben on Saturday 28th February 13:09
If it's taken two men over 80 hours each to rewire a house then it's either a huge house, they are incompetent or they are lying about the amount of hours it's taken. £3k/4k would cover most standard rewires on a three bed semi. It generally costs me in the region of £2.5 to rewire a 3 bed house, but this is for an empty house with no carpets fitted and no need to worry about making a mess, that's roughly a 50/50 spilt between labour and materials , my sparkle charges me £25.00 per hour.
stuart313 said:
This ^ Builders are dheads.
I hate to generalise but choosing a good one isn't easy.heads.Last one I seem to have fallen out with rang me up and had a go because he "turned off the circuit marked sockets then blew himself up when he chopped the wires in the kitchen" and feels I'm to blame. My question as to whether he thought of turning off the circuit marked "kitchen sockets" or using some test equipment to prove the circuit dead as per the sodding law kind of fell on deaf ears. And he used to be okay in the scheme of things....
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