2015 Lawn thread

[Some Gump]

Imo seed wider then cut back. That is also the instruction in the bible

[R8VXF]

F3RNY7 said:

Thanks Mike, that's a good idea!

After rotavating will it be necessary to put topsoil down? Or does the fact that a lawn was growing there previously mean that its ok to just seed over the existing soil once the current turf is rotavated and removed?

I have the ne the other way and will cut the shape of lawn at the end. Either way should be fine. I haven't put any topsoild down but am slightly regretting it due to certain areas being very stony and I have not been able to remove them all. Will just build up the lawn with topsoil over time in any areas that need it. Saving myself a lot of money this way Imo. While at it I have also installed an integrated lawn sprinkler system with a timer which has meant seeding at this time of year has had amazing success

[Dr Mike Oxgreen]

F3RNY7 said:

After rotavating will it be necessary to put topsoil down? Or does the fact that a lawn was growing there previously mean that its ok to just seed over the existing soil once the current turf is rotavated and removed?

I'll let others with more experience answer that, but one thing that has occurred to me is this: I would definitely glyphosate the whole lot about 10 days before you rotovate. That way you won't be keeping any live bits of weed roots that could regrow, and you won't be keeping any bits of unwelcome grass types - although there will inevitably be a seed bank in the soil.

Thinking about it, the last point is a good argument in favour of putting a decent layer of good-quality sterilised topsoil on top of the rotovated soil - it should have far fewer weed seeds in it (hopefully none), and any existing weed seeds will be buried under an inch or two of topsoil.

Edited to add: I can see the argument in favour of seeding slightly beyond your intended boundary, otherwise you might end up with sparse coverage up to the edge. If you scatter seed generously up to and slightly over your boundary, you'll have a generous covering where you need it and can then cut back the 'overspray'.

Edited by Dr Mike Oxgreen on Thursday 25th June 14:14

[jagnet]

F3RNY7 said:

Also because we want some curves in the lawn, I presume it's best to define the shape of the lawn we want, then get some edging in place and then seed only up to that edging? I.E. as opposed to seeding the entire thing and then having to cut away curved edges?

If you're going to be using edging then yes, you can define the shape and seed up to the edge. If not then seed slightly oversize and cut the required edge once the grass is well established with a root system developed enough to hold the edge. If doing the latter then cutting the edge at a slight angle away from the lawn will help the ground retain moisture making the edge grasses less prone to drying out before the rest, although the shallower the edge the less important this is. You can also seed oversize and then trim and place the edging, which would be my preferred way of doing it to make levelling the turf bed that little bit easier.

F3RNY7 said:

After rotavating will it be necessary to put topsoil down? Or does the fact that a lawn was growing there previously mean that its ok to just seed over the existing soil once the current turf is rotavated and removed?

Now's definitely the time to tackle your soil composition if you can. Amending it when there's a lawn on top is a time consuming process.

I'd add 2 to 3 inches of well matured compost to the existing soil when digging down 6 to 8 inches. As it's an existing lawn that's in poor condition you can bet that there's minimal organic matter in it. Compost helps sandy soils retain moisture and heavy soils drain better, it's great stuff. If nothing else I would at least add the compost and I'd use compost from green waste rather than manure as the salts content is a bit of an unknown with the latter.

If it's a very heavy clay soil then you'll also need to add sharp sand or sandy loam and lots of it - effectively an amount at least equal to your existing soil if it's very heavy. On very sandy soils I'd add in some loam.

When adding amendments make sure that they're well rotovated in and not just layered on top. Splitting it into two or three batches and incorporate each well before adding the next.

I would also recommend re mineralising the soil with volcanic rock dust in the upper few inches at a good 2kg per m2, although even 0.5kg will help.

You could get a soil test done, but tbh on a small lawn the more comprehensive tests will pay for quite a lot of the required compost etc. Unless you're going for a croquet lawn then the budget is better spent on basic amendments imho.

If you're seeding rather than turfing then a thin covering of straw (not hay), or a germination mat will help a lot with moisture retention and protection from the worst of the midday sun.

[wjwren]

just to note - i used a solar powered bird scare and it worked a treat. On the back I didnt have one and the birds and foxes have had a mooch.

[F3RNY7]

Dr Mike Oxgreen said:

I'll let others with more experience answer that, but one thing that has occurred to me is this: I would definitely glyphosate the whole lot about 10 days before you rotovate. That way you won't be keeping any live bits of weed roots that could regrow, and you won't be keeping any bits of unwelcome grass types - although there will inevitably be a seed bank in the soil.

Thinking about it, the last point is a good argument in favour of putting a decent layer of good-quality sterilised topsoil on top of the rotovated soil - it should have far fewer weed seeds in it (hopefully none), and any existing weed seeds will be buried under an inch or two of topsoil.

Edited to add: I can see the argument in favour of seeding slightly beyond your intended boundary, otherwise you might end up with sparse coverage up to the edge. If you scatter seed generously up to and slightly over your boundary, you'll have a generous covering where you need it and can then cut back the 'overspray'.

Edited by Dr Mike Oxgreen on Thursday 25th June 14:14

Thanks Mike.

Will this be appropriate? http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B004EALKEM/ref=pd_...

The rotovation is happening in mid July, so is there any harm in me using this now? I only have the man and his rotovator on hire for one day so I want to be as best prepared as possible.

I will be using lawn edging so do you think I'll be ok to edge first as long as I pay special attention to ensuring that enough seed makes its way to the edging (maybe overseed along the boundary?)

[F3RNY7]

jagnet said:

Now's definitely the time to tackle your soil composition if you can. Amending it when there's a lawn on top is a time consuming process.

I'd add 2 to 3 inches of well matured compost to the existing soil when digging down 6 to 8 inches. As it's an existing lawn that's in poor condition you can bet that there's minimal organic matter in it. Compost helps sandy soils retain moisture and heavy soils drain better, it's great stuff. If nothing else I would at least add the compost and I'd use compost from green waste rather than manure as the salts content is a bit of an unknown with the latter.

If it's a very heavy clay soil then you'll also need to add sharp sand or sandy loam and lots of it - effectively an amount at least equal to your existing soil if it's very heavy. On very sandy soils I'd add in some loam.

When adding amendments make sure that they're well rotovated in and not just layered on top. Splitting it into two or three batches and incorporate each well before adding the next.

I would also recommend re mineralising the soil with volcanic rock dust in the upper few inches at a good 2kg per m2, although even 0.5kg will help.

You could get a soil test done, but tbh on a small lawn the more comprehensive tests will pay for quite a lot of the required compost etc. Unless you're going for a croquet lawn then the budget is better spent on basic amendments imho.

If you're seeding rather than turfing then a thin covering of straw (not hay), or a germination mat will help a lot with moisture retention and protection from the worst of the midday sun.

Thanks Jagnet. A lot of this is well over my head I must admit! The guy with the rotovator says he will remove all green waste created whilst rotavating, so I should I guess have a better idea once that's done of what amendments need making to the soil. I'm not planning on seeding until September so it should give me 6-8 weeks to make the required amendments before seeding.

I think the soil may well be fairly stony so I think I'll need to sieve it or something to try and get the existing soil as free from stones and debris as possible?

[R8VXF]

Dr Mike Oxgreen said:

I'll let others with more experience answer that, but one thing that has occurred to me is this: I would definitely glyphosate the whole lot about 10 days before you rotovate. That way you won't be keeping any live bits of weed roots that could regrow, and you won't be keeping any bits of unwelcome grass types - although there will inevitably be a seed bank in the soil.

Thinking about it, the last point is a good argument in favour of putting a decent layer of good-quality sterilised topsoil on top of the rotovated soil - it should have far fewer weed seeds in it (hopefully none), and any existing weed seeds will be buried under an inch or two of topsoil.

Edited to add: I can see the argument in favour of seeding slightly beyond your intended boundary, otherwise you might end up with sparse coverage up to the edge. If you scatter seed generously up to and slightly over your boundary, you'll have a generous covering where you need it and can then cut back the 'overspray'.

Edited by Dr Mike Oxgreen on Thursday 25th June 14:14

I glysophated after rotavation and have no unwanted grass or weeds Definitely the right thing to do.

[Dr Mike Oxgreen]

F3RNY7 said:

Will this be appropriate? http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B004EALKEM/ref=pd_...

Yep, that will do the trick nicely. Personally I would glyphosate before rotovating, for two reasons: firstly, glyphosate works by being absorbed by the living plant and transported through its stems and roots to the whole of its structure, so you need to apply it to a healthy, growing plant; secondly, if you rotovate first you risk chopping up bits of root and burying them, where they can regrow. Either way, the glyphosate will quickly break down and become harmless in the soil, although it does need a good week to ten days to kill off the plants.

[jagnet]

muncher said:

The bowls club next door have been scarifying yesterday and today, quite heavily with a beast of a machine, it's a bit different to a lawn (cut to 6mm) but I guess it shows it can be down all year round and the lawn still used.

No problem scarifying and verticutting throughout the summer as part of a regular planned maintenance regime. The bowls club are likely to be scarifying every 3 to 4 weeks to remove side growth and thatch, improving sward density and green speed. With healthy turf it's not going to leave extensive bare patches. Even then I doubt they're scarifying as deeply as they will be in the autumn.

Scarifying a domestic lawn that's in bad shape with weak turf, large amounts of moss, weeds and deep thatch is a different prospect. Without re seeding afterwards (which is where the use of the lawn issue arises) the lawn will take a long time to recover, giving plenty of opportunity for weeds and coarse grasses to take hold.

It's not impossible to perform major renovations at this time of year, it's just a whole lot easier in the autumn with better results more likely.

[F3RNY7]

Dr Mike Oxgreen said:

Yep, that will do the trick nicely. Personally I would glyphosate before rotovating, for two reasons: firstly, glyphosate works by being absorbed by the living plant and transported through its stems and roots to the whole of its structure, so you need to apply it to a healthy, growing plant; secondly, if you rotovate first you risk chopping up bits of root and burying them, where they can regrow. Either way, the glyphosate will quickly break down and become harmless in the soil, although it does need a good week to ten days to kill off the plants.

Top man, thanks Mike. It's just over 2 weeks til it's getting rotavated so I'll get on it now!

[jagnet]

F3RNY7 said:

Thanks Jagnet. A lot of this is well over my head I must admit! The guy with the rotovator says he will remove all green waste created whilst rotavating, so I should I guess have a better idea once that's done of what amendments need making to the soil. I'm not planning on seeding until September so it should give me 6-8 weeks to make the required amendments before seeding.

I think the soil may well be fairly stony so I think I'll need to sieve it or something to try and get the existing soil as free from stones and debris as possible?

You could dig out a few plugs from the lawn now to get a good look at what the soil is like underneath. Also if you get rain then look for areas of the lawn with drainage issues.

No problem adding the amendments later on, but if rotovator guy can dig it in for you then it's going to be easier.

If you can get out as many stones as possible then all the better. Sieving is certainly thorough, but even digging over and picking out the worst will help a great deal.

[F3RNY7]

One more thing Mike - can the glysophate be used in flower beds that have weeds in or will it kill flowers? I'm assuming you can't use it safely in flower beds but thought I'd check!

Thanks

PS Thanks Jagnet!

Edited by F3RNY7 on Thursday 25th June 15:54

[illmonkey]

Have been cutting mine higher and it seems to like it. It doesn't like my dog, however!

Just reseeded and watered the dead bits.

[R8VXF]

F3RNY7 said:

One more thing Mike - can the glysophate be used in flower beds that have weeds in or will it kill flowers? I'm assuming you can't use it safely in flower beds but thought I'd check!

Thanks

PS Thanks Jagnet!

Edited by F3RNY7 on Thursday 25th June 15:54

Glysophate will kill everything it comes into contact with. Do not use it in flower beds.

[popeyewhite]

illmonkey said:

Have been cutting mine higher and it seems to like it. It doesn't like my dog, however!

Just reseeded and watered the dead bits.

Ah yes Salem's Lot. Pleeeeease don't post a pic taken at twilight it'll give me nightmares.

[illmonkey]

popeyewhite said:

Ah yes Salem's Lot. Pleeeeease don't post a pic taken at twilight it'll give me nightmares.

What?

[popeyewhite]

illmonkey said:

popeyewhite said:

Ah yes Salem's Lot. Pleeeeease don't post a pic taken at twilight it'll give me nightmares.

What?

Your garden is creepy, and I'm making a joke about it. It's been mentioned before... .

[Condi]

R8VXF said:

F3RNY7 said:

One more thing Mike - can the glysophate be used in flower beds that have weeds in or will it kill flowers? I'm assuming you can't use it safely in flower beds but thought I'd check!

Thanks

PS Thanks Jagnet!

Edited by F3RNY7 on Thursday 25th June 15:54

Glysophate will kill everything it comes into contact with. Do not use it in flower beds.

Glysophate kills everything but doesn't hang around in the soil.

Correct way to do it would be to spray now, so it has a good hit before rotavating. After rotavating leave for a week and see what, if anything grows. If nothing grows then seed with new grass. If you get some weeds then spray glysopate again and pull out/dig in the new weeds. You can seed pretty much straight away after that. Drag a rake over to cover the seed and it'll be fine.

Im considering doing the same with mine, although a good dose of Veredone may just have persuaded me it can be saved.

Oh, and you're far better with some proper stuff. Use this in a watering can or better yet a garden sprayer.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00CBXKFLS?psc=1

Edited by Condi on Thursday 25th June 23:26

[Dr Mike Oxgreen]

Yep, worth repeating: glyphosate kills everything it touches! It is absorbed through the leaves, so spray it on a calm, windless day to avoid overspray getting onto any nearby plants that you want to keep. To be absolutely sure, you could get an assistant to hold up a big sheet of plastic as a shield when you're spraying near your plants - but you should be fine if there's no wind.