New boiler, unsure which make to go for.

[Sheepshanks]

LookAtMyCat said:

AMG Merc said:

Worcester Bosch all day long. Not that it swayed me but mine came with a 7 year warranty.

You paid for that 7-year warranty, without knowing it, because your installer almost certainly did. Vaillant Ecotec Plus come with a 7-year warranty if fitted by a Vaillant Advance installer, totally free of charge.

Not sure how you work that out, as quotes for comparable boilers from WB and Vaillant will be about the same price - as the OP has shown.

The one we got is guaranteed for 8yrs. In my head I'm thinking its life will be 8yrs. Discarding the BG maint contract for that period means the boiler cost next to nothing.

I agree (indeed I wrote similar in the thread already) with some of your other comments though.

[vanordinaire]

We look after about 5500 houses and before embarking on heating renewal we did a lot of research before deciding on which new boilers to fit but eventually settled on giving our contractors the choice of Worcester or Valiant. They are going in about 75% Worcester and 25% Valiant, the Worcesters slightly cheaper, 2 years into the replacement program, they have been very similar for reliability and repair costs. Both a million times better than the Ferrolli which we had before.

[stolt]

i will get a couple more quotes, perhaps one from an accredited worcester fitter.

so hard to tell isnt on what to go for, my main issue is that as we have a normal conventional boiler but ive been quoted on combi boliers and years ago i had a bad experience it was always losing pressure. so really just want a like for like.

Edited by stolt on Tuesday 28th April 23:14

[Rickyy]

LookAtMyCat said:

AMG Merc said:

Worcester Bosch all day long. Not that it swayed me but mine came with a 7 year warranty.

You paid for that 7-year warranty, without knowing it, because your installer almost certainly did. Vaillant Ecotec Plus come with a 7-year warranty if fitted by a Vaillant Advance installer, totally free of charge.

To be honest, WB seem to be the boiler of choice for the bodger-bridages these days. Crap installers tote the Worcester Accredited badge (which, I should add, is absolutely no mark of a quality installer, only a mark of how many boilers they install, not how well they install them.) The truth is that most of the range is plastic filled crap, terrible and expensive to repair, a manufacturer-only fault system on the new compacts. The CDi Classics aren't bad, but for the same money you could get a top end Vaillant.

There's a reason why every heating engineer I know has a Vaillant in their own house, regardless of what they fit. A lot of installers fit the boiler from whatever manufacturer has the best kickback scheme; Ideal being a notable one. Crap boilers, but great kickbacks, aka a lot of engineers fit them.

Vaillant's installer scheme is hardly difficult to get on to. It took a ten minute chat with the rep in a merchants and I walked away being able to offer 7 years on the Ecotec Plus and 5 on the Ecotec Pro.

To look at a Worcester and a Vaillant side by side, the Vaillant is by far the better engineered and easier to work on.

But Vaillant have not been without their problems. Recent models have suffered with:

• Expansion vessel failure
• Burner door seals failing, causing further damage and potential Carbon Monoxide issues
• Condensate trap connectors going brittle and leaking, filling the bottom of the boiler up with water
• Rubber hoses splitting

Worcester also have had problems:

• Left hand manifold cracks, causing a spray of mains water inside the boiler casing
• Flow turbine adaptor failing, causing a leak of mains water on the right hand side of the boiler
• Fans seem to die after 5-6 years
• A few cases of the mystery EA fault appearing on CDI Classics, which has happened to two I have fitted

Credit to both manufacturers, when a fault becomes common, they do take steps to modify part to prevent it happening again.

I've probably fitted ~50 Worcesters in the last 3 years and only been called back to two, for the EA fault code mentioned above. Worcester attended next day on both occasions.

I stopped fitting Worcesters because I don't like the new compact range, they aren't very well laid out and look like they'll be expensive to repair.

OP, the installer is correct about the wiring. Most older boilers just had a switched live, neutral and earth. Modern boilers, with low water content heat exchangers, need the pump to run on after the burner has stopped, to prevent it warping. That is why the extra wiring is needed, a permanent live and a pump live. So 5 cores in total. The actual wiring is very simple, it's the physical running of the wire that is the issue.

Fitting the boiler in the loft may be an issue. You have an open vented system by the sounds of it, so the feed and expansion tank for the heating needs to be higher than the boiler. Easiest way around this is to fit a system boiler, which has an internal pump and expansion vessel, meaning the heating system is pressurised, doing away with the feed and expansion system for the heating. It's basically a combi without the hot water capability.

The guides you've been looking at are probably for a combi, the suitability for the size of homes is based upon their hot water performance. A 24kw combi for example would only produce enough hot water for one hot tap to be used at once, but would easily heat a 5 bedroom home. So a 24kw conventional boiler should be adequate to heat your home.

[stolt]

Rickyy said:

Vaillant's installer scheme is hardly difficult to get on to. It took a ten minute chat with the rep in a merchants and I walked away being able to offer 7 years on the Ecotec Plus and 5 on the Ecotec Pro.

To look at a Worcester and a Vaillant side by side, the Vaillant is by far the better engineered and easier to work on.

But Vaillant have not been without their problems. Recent models have suffered with:

• Expansion vessel failure
• Burner door seals failing, causing further damage and potential Carbon Monoxide issues
• Condensate trap connectors going brittle and leaking, filling the bottom of the boiler up with water
• Rubber hoses splitting

Worcester also have had problems:

• Left hand manifold cracks, causing a spray of mains water inside the boiler casing
• Flow turbine adaptor failing, causing a leak of mains water on the right hand side of the boiler
• Fans seem to die after 5-6 years
• A few cases of the mystery EA fault appearing on CDI Classics, which has happened to two I have fitted

Credit to both manufacturers, when a fault becomes common, they do take steps to modify part to prevent it happening again.

I've probably fitted ~50 Worcesters in the last 3 years and only been called back to two, for the EA fault code mentioned above. Worcester attended next day on both occasions.

I stopped fitting Worcesters because I don't like the new compact range, they aren't very well laid out and look like they'll be expensive to repair.

OP, the installer is correct about the wiring. Most older boilers just had a switched live, neutral and earth. Modern boilers, with low water content heat exchangers, need the pump to run on after the burner has stopped, to prevent it warping. That is why the extra wiring is needed, a permanent live and a pump live. So 5 cores in total. The actual wiring is very simple, it's the physical running of the wire that is the issue.

Fitting the boiler in the loft may be an issue. You have an open vented system by the sounds of it, so the feed and expansion tank for the heating needs to be higher than the boiler. Easiest way around this is to fit a system boiler, which has an internal pump and expansion vessel, meaning the heating system is pressurised, doing away with the feed and expansion system for the heating. It's basically a combi without the hot water capability.

The guides you've been looking at are probably for a combi, the suitability for the size of homes is based upon their hot water performance. A 24kw combi for example would only produce enough hot water for one hot tap to be used at once, but would easily heat a 5 bedroom home. So a 24kw conventional boiler should be adequate to heat your home.

thanks for the detailed reply, really appreciate that. are those boilers combi boilers then or what i call conventional boilers. As i say we have a hot tank upstairs and the ideal/plan was to keep that. As i say i had a combi years ago and it was nothing but problems.

so undecided on what to go for, as expected so many reviews and reccomendations for both.

[Rickyy]

I'd advise keeping it as conventional set-up for a 5 bed home. Not the prettiest option, but could you run the extra wires in external trunking up the side of the house, into the attic and down to the airing cupboard?

[stolt]

Rickyy said:

I'd advise keeping it as conventional set-up for a 5 bed home. Not the prettiest option, but could you run the extra wires in external trunking up the side of the house, into the attic and down to the airing cupboard?

yeah its possible as the boiler is in the utility room, above that one of daughters rooms with built in wardrobes in there so his plan was to go up through the ceiling into the wardrobe up and through that into the loft and then along into the airing cupboard im assuming.

the next problem is he has to take a pipe to the drain, theres no outside drain but there is a sink in the utility but next to that is a washing machine, my worry is trying to drag that out and damaging the floor so that was my thought on putting it in the loft or perhaps airing cupboard.

[Parsnip]

Apologies for the slight thread hijack, but we are pretty much in the same boat at the moment.

Looking at replacing a 18 year old conventional ideal with header tank with a newer system boiler (probably Worcester), installation of hive and a powerflush of the system. British gas came in at about £3500 for the boiler and install (and to install a hive at the same time), which seems steep? to me it seems a case of pulling the old unit off, flushing the system, bit of flue work and wiring the new one in?

Will obviously get a few more quotes, but is that anywhere near the right ballpark?

Also, one of our radiators is properly sludged up - the bottom half doesn't do much of anything - will a powerflush really sort it out, or is it better to replace the radiator?

[probedb]

Speaking to a gas engineer, he'd personally go for Vaillant first and then Worcester Bosch.

[LookAtMyCat]

Parsnip said:

Apologies for the slight thread hijack, but we are pretty much in the same boat at the moment.

Looking at replacing a 18 year old conventional ideal with header tank with a newer system boiler (probably Worcester), installation of hive and a powerflush of the system. British gas came in at about £3500 for the boiler and install (and to install a hive at the same time), which seems steep? to me it seems a case of pulling the old unit off, flushing the system, bit of flue work and wiring the new one in?

Will obviously get a few more quotes, but is that anywhere near the right ballpark?

Also, one of our radiators is properly sludged up - the bottom half doesn't do much of anything - will a powerflush really sort it out, or is it better to replace the radiator?

Yes, £3500 is very steep for that. British Gas are wildly expensive for installs and i've seen some horrendous work they've done. Get 3 quotes from local engineers and as long as all the prices are fairly similar (you can expect +/- 300-500 either way) and go with the installer you like best. A good installer is much more important than a cheap price.

The only WB I would recommend is the CDi Classics (system/combi). Stay well away from the new Compacts. The Juniors are a fairly proven design but they're pretty much made entirely of plastic. But again, I fit Vaillants myself.

Yes, a properly carried out power-flush should remove 90% of the sludge and result in all the rads getting hot from top to bottom. High-end installers may have an IR camera to show you the difference before and after, which is nice.

Edited by LookAtMyCat on Wednesday 29th April 08:52

[Rickyy]

stolt said:

Rickyy said:

I'd advise keeping it as conventional set-up for a 5 bed home. Not the prettiest option, but could you run the extra wires in external trunking up the side of the house, into the attic and down to the airing cupboard?

yeah its possible as the boiler is in the utility room, above that one of daughters rooms with built in wardrobes in there so his plan was to go up through the ceiling into the wardrobe up and through that into the loft and then along into the airing cupboard im assuming.

the next problem is he has to take a pipe to the drain, theres no outside drain but there is a sink in the utility but next to that is a washing machine, my worry is trying to drag that out and damaging the floor so that was my thought on putting it in the loft or perhaps airing cupboard.

Putting it where the old boiler is sounds ideal if there is an easy route for the wiring and drainage. The only time a washing machine damages flooring is when it's dragged across lino, if you tip it back on to its hind legs and walk it out, it shouldn't damage a thing.

Putting a boiler in a loft is always a last resort. It'll be a lot more work in your case. If the boiler ever develops a fault, it's a pain having to clamber up there to reset it all the time and it's liable to frost damage.

[Alucidnation]

Another vote for Viessman here.

[stolt]

Rickyy said:

Putting it where the old boiler is sounds ideal if there is an easy route for the wiring and drainage. The only time a washing machine damages flooring is when it's dragged across lino, if you tip it back on to its hind legs and walk it out, it shouldn't damage a thing.

Putting a boiler in a loft is always a last resort. It'll be a lot more work in your case. If the boiler ever develops a fault, it's a pain having to clamber up there to reset it all the time and it's liable to frost damage.

ok cheers, yeah the wife did say imagine if we had the same issue with the the new boiler as we have we the old and have to keep pushing the switch in, it would mean coming upto the loft as you say to mess around with the boiler.

its just us protecting some amitco floor which was laid in the utility room and have visions of it being scratched by plumbers etc, didnt think it through and should have done it first.

[BoostMonkey]

Alucidnation said:

Another vote for Viessman here.

Have you considered the Vitodens 111- W with the integrated 50ltr hotwater tank, removes the need for a seperate tank upstairs and associated pipework?
Has anyone got experiance fitting one at all?

[Rickyy]

BoostMonkey said:

Alucidnation said:

Another vote for Viessman here.

Have you considered the Vitodens 111- W with the integrated 50ltr hotwater tank, removes the need for a seperate tank upstairs and associated pipework?
Has anyone got experiance fitting one at all?

I installed a Viessmann 35kw system boiler last week. It was quite average, with a lot of plastic inside.

It did heat up bloody quick though, time will tell if it proves to be reliable.

[BoostMonkey]

Rickyy said:

I installed a Viessmann 35kw system boiler last week. It was quite average, with a lot of plastic inside.

It did heat up bloody quick though, time will tell if it proves to be reliable.

Maybe a stupid question, but what is the problem with some of the components inside being plastic?
Do they not last over a certain period of time?

[Foppo]

Daughter got the latest Ideal Combi boiler fitted.£1500 all in.Local small business he also replaced leaking radiators over some time.

He fitted the boiler with some extra filters to pick up any sludge in the system.I forgot what they call the filter.Also put corrosing protector in.

Boiler is very quiet and a 7 year quarantee.

All combi boilers can be troublesome.Have them regular serviced is the key in my opinion.

[Sheepshanks]

Foppo said:

Daughter got the latest Ideal Combi boiler fitted.£1500 all in.Local small business he also replaced leaking radiators over some time.

He fitted the boiler with some extra filters to pick up any sludge in the system.I forgot what they call the filter.Also put corrosing protector in.

Boiler is very quiet and a 7 year quarantee.

That's a very good price for a boiler change these days. We paid a bit over £2K for a straight combi to combi swap. I suppose £400 was VAT though.

Foppo said:

All combi boilers can be troublesome.Have them regular serviced is the key in my opinion.

The nearest thing to "servicing" will be cleaning out the filter. There's no dismantling, cleaning burners etc done these days. It's mainly a safety check.

[Rickyy]

BoostMonkey said:

Rickyy said:

I installed a Viessmann 35kw system boiler last week. It was quite average, with a lot of plastic inside.

It did heat up bloody quick though, time will tell if it proves to be reliable.

Maybe a stupid question, but what is the problem with some of the components inside being plastic?
Do they not last over a certain period of time?

I've no issues with plastic as such. There have been instances with certain manufacturers, where "wet" plastic components have split and caused leaks.

I was just disappointed with the Viessmann, because a lot of people have been raving about them and they seem be of similar quality to much cheaper boilers.

Even Vaillants contain a lot of plastic now.

[BoostMonkey]

Rickyy said:

I've no issues with plastic as such. There have been instances with certain manufacturers, where "wet" plastic components have split and caused leaks.

I was just disappointed with the Viessmann, because a lot of people have been raving about them and they seem be of similar quality to much cheaper boilers.

Even Vaillants contain a lot of plastic now.

This thread has made me check the bolier we have, apparetnly a not so good 76% efficient (2005 Worcester Bosch 28 CDi).

I'm quite keen to get a boiler with a integrated water tank so we can run shower/kitchen/bathroom tap at the same time, we have no space for a proper tank.

What would you recommend?