Cost of converting into double garage
Discussion
TA14 said:
Take my previous post. You only get to two weeks becuse you have ignored some items and randomly converted their costs into a labour cost. Why not try six days labour, add in the cost of the few items that I mentioned and see how far short of the builder's estimate you come? Then what about the items that we've overlooked?
You seem to be assuming that the only costs are mats and labour
OK try this for an exercise: list out your guess of costs.
(And I'm not impressed with the brick pier solution.)
Sorry perhaps we are coming from different perspectives.You seem to be assuming that the only costs are mats and labour
OK try this for an exercise: list out your guess of costs.
(And I'm not impressed with the brick pier solution.)
I have listed the costings exactly as the builder has provided them to me. I have assumed the only costs are materials and labour because that is the way they builder has listed them to me. He has put the labour cost at c. 3000.
I am not sure what you are referring to when you say that I have randomly converted items into labour costs and/or ignored items?
And with regards to the brick pier solution, are you saying the way the builder plans to do the work doesn't impress you? If so may I ask why?
TA14 said:
soprano said:
jason61c said:
4 days work say for 2 men?
A day to knock through and out
A day to fit rsj
A day to do the floor
A day to finish?
2 guys, at 175-200 a day, £1600 tops?
That was more where I was thinking. I know the labourer charge is 120 per day. I would guess the main builder would be more than that, say 175 per day. Working on the basis of 5 days work for 2 men at an average of 150 per day, the labour cost would be c. 1500.A day to knock through and out
A day to fit rsj
A day to do the floor
A day to finish?
2 guys, at 175-200 a day, £1600 tops?
If my daily labour costings are approximately right, 3000 in labour is two weeks of work. I just struggle to see how the job will take 2 weeks.
OP - is there a reason why you want a single 5M door. Could you manage with two single doors as it would save you a lot of money? No need for a full width rsj across the front
If you take the dividing wall down what's going to hold up the roof in the middle or are the roof trusses independent of the centre wall? Or have I missed another rsj?
If you take the dividing wall down what's going to hold up the roof in the middle or are the roof trusses independent of the centre wall? Or have I missed another rsj?
Edited by elanfan on Sunday 10th May 04:26
Couple of things to think of.
The front beam , to keep things looking perfect , it is going to need a plate welding to the bottom to carry an outer skin of soldier bricks to match the existing detail. Or a Pfc with an angle welded to the back. Who has sized the support ?
When the dividing wall comes down , you are going to need a small pier on the back wall.
When they fit the side door , don't just cut a hole and fit a door, I suggest you have a small brick pier built each side of the opening. I wouldn't have this door too close to the corner either.
As for costs , they have just lumped a whole load of operations and costs in so as to give you a break down, for a job like this they aren't going to waste their time itemising every nut and bolt.
No separate mention of digging out a foundation for the piers.
For instance , they haven't separately priced overheads , ie insurances , phones , vehicles and tools, somebody to sit down and order the materials .
When they remove the blocks , they will be digging out the sub base in prep for a new concrete slab
You really should have somebody who knows what they are doing prepare a quick drawing for this.
Any public sewers running along the drive within 3m of the front ?
Just a few thoughts , hopefully to assist you.
As for 4 days work , that's a corporate desk jockey guess , IMHO , or somebody who hasn't got to do the job.
The front beam , to keep things looking perfect , it is going to need a plate welding to the bottom to carry an outer skin of soldier bricks to match the existing detail. Or a Pfc with an angle welded to the back. Who has sized the support ?
When the dividing wall comes down , you are going to need a small pier on the back wall.
When they fit the side door , don't just cut a hole and fit a door, I suggest you have a small brick pier built each side of the opening. I wouldn't have this door too close to the corner either.
As for costs , they have just lumped a whole load of operations and costs in so as to give you a break down, for a job like this they aren't going to waste their time itemising every nut and bolt.
No separate mention of digging out a foundation for the piers.
For instance , they haven't separately priced overheads , ie insurances , phones , vehicles and tools, somebody to sit down and order the materials .
When they remove the blocks , they will be digging out the sub base in prep for a new concrete slab
You really should have somebody who knows what they are doing prepare a quick drawing for this.
Any public sewers running along the drive within 3m of the front ?
Just a few thoughts , hopefully to assist you.
As for 4 days work , that's a corporate desk jockey guess , IMHO , or somebody who hasn't got to do the job.
Edited by Busa mav on Sunday 10th May 08:20
Edited by Busa mav on Sunday 10th May 08:32
jason61c said:
soprano said:
A 5 metre wide electric roller door from either SWS or Hormann, if you have any recommendations for a cheaper supplier I will be happy to hear them.
I'd imagine an sws in that size would be 1800-2100 fitted depending on where you are etc?Edited by soprano on Saturday 9th May 14:26
there were cheaper quotes (a lot cheaper) for other manufacturers but I went with a local firm who had very good reviews.
Thanks for the replies so far guys, in answer to some questions -
Elanfan - the openings are relatively narrow which at the moment for the garage is ok because the TVR isn't that wide. The car port is a bit of a pain to use because there is very little room each side. I did think about the two door solution but I wanted more room around the cars and I suspect whilst there would be some costs of the job savings, two single doors would cost more than one double, reducing any saving.
There is only one RSJ side to side. I asked the builder whether a second RSJ is needed front to rear and was told it didn't. The wall is effectively built up between the roof trusses. I can take a picture if need be.
Busamav
That is exactly the kind of reply I was looking for, thanks for taking the time -
The RSJ is going to come with a plate welded to it for the soldier bricks as you say. As for sizing it, as far as I am aware the builder has spoken to the fabricator. He hasn't spoken to an engineer for instance. No drawings have been produced.
As for the rear wall and side door, no mention has been made of building brick piers there. I agree there needs to be a reasonable distance from the corner, you may mean from a structural point of view, but also for practical reasons as I would like a work bench/ shelving/ cupboards across the rear.
There are also a couple of other things you have pointed out I hadn't thought of. As far as I am aware there are no sewers in front of the driveway.
Ilovemondeo - can I ask where you got your garage door from? I have a quote from the garage door centre in Northampton which is 2,300 for a securoglide. I tried to get a quote from a local family run company but they declined to quote on account of being too busy!
Elanfan - the openings are relatively narrow which at the moment for the garage is ok because the TVR isn't that wide. The car port is a bit of a pain to use because there is very little room each side. I did think about the two door solution but I wanted more room around the cars and I suspect whilst there would be some costs of the job savings, two single doors would cost more than one double, reducing any saving.
There is only one RSJ side to side. I asked the builder whether a second RSJ is needed front to rear and was told it didn't. The wall is effectively built up between the roof trusses. I can take a picture if need be.
Busamav
That is exactly the kind of reply I was looking for, thanks for taking the time -
The RSJ is going to come with a plate welded to it for the soldier bricks as you say. As for sizing it, as far as I am aware the builder has spoken to the fabricator. He hasn't spoken to an engineer for instance. No drawings have been produced.
As for the rear wall and side door, no mention has been made of building brick piers there. I agree there needs to be a reasonable distance from the corner, you may mean from a structural point of view, but also for practical reasons as I would like a work bench/ shelving/ cupboards across the rear.
There are also a couple of other things you have pointed out I hadn't thought of. As far as I am aware there are no sewers in front of the driveway.
Ilovemondeo - can I ask where you got your garage door from? I have a quote from the garage door centre in Northampton which is 2,300 for a securoglide. I tried to get a quote from a local family run company but they declined to quote on account of being too busy!
I was talking from a structural point.
The piers each side of the new side door are more to stop the brickwork cracking when the door gets slammed or blown shut in the wind. It's a long pice of wall that would just end at the new frame.
As for taking down the central wall , I suspect that will be a pita, juggling everything through the existing trusses, remembering that they are probably tight to the wall each side of it. It is going to be an awkward job rather than difficult.
Also check that any wind bracing is reinstated / altered as required when the wall is down.
The piers each side of the new side door are more to stop the brickwork cracking when the door gets slammed or blown shut in the wind. It's a long pice of wall that would just end at the new frame.
As for taking down the central wall , I suspect that will be a pita, juggling everything through the existing trusses, remembering that they are probably tight to the wall each side of it. It is going to be an awkward job rather than difficult.
Also check that any wind bracing is reinstated / altered as required when the wall is down.
jason61c said:
Of course you're correct, however the OP's quote does seem a fair bit 'toppy'. Would an RSJ to suit really cost £600? Genuine question as I want to get some to build a retaining wall with sleepers.
Unlike your garage the OP has no drawings or calcs so the cost may be this sort of thing: 250 for the beam + 100 for calcs or more likely to go up a series in size + 100 for a welded plate + 100 painting + 50 delivery. In your case best go to a reclamation yard/stockist; you may even get them galvanised - people don't like galvanised second hand because they're not easy to weld.I would consider that quote cheap for a decent builder!
Was the builder recommended to you? If so, why not trust him to price what the job is worth to him?
I'm at the point of turning work away unless the customer is prepared to wait till the winter time so I imagine many builders are in a similar position.
As for the suggestions to manage the work yourself, who is going to tooth out the existing brickwork, prop the roof dig the footing correctly, insert the steel, etc....
Following from a thread on a similar topic a while ago, this is a perfect example of why I wouldn't itemise the labour cost on a quotation.
Take a pic of the door for us to see when completed.
Good luck.
Was the builder recommended to you? If so, why not trust him to price what the job is worth to him?
I'm at the point of turning work away unless the customer is prepared to wait till the winter time so I imagine many builders are in a similar position.
As for the suggestions to manage the work yourself, who is going to tooth out the existing brickwork, prop the roof dig the footing correctly, insert the steel, etc....
Following from a thread on a similar topic a while ago, this is a perfect example of why I wouldn't itemise the labour cost on a quotation.
Take a pic of the door for us to see when completed.
Good luck.
Busa mav said:
I was talking from a structural point.
The piers each side of the new side door are more to stop the brickwork cracking when the door gets slammed or blown shut in the wind. It's a long pice of wall that would just end at the new frame.
As for taking down the central wall , I suspect that will be a pita, juggling everything through the existing trusses, remembering that they are probably tight to the wall each side of it. It is going to be an awkward job rather than difficult.
Also check that any wind bracing is reinstated / altered as required when the wall is down.
Thanks for your further input - that makes perfect sense regarding the piers either side of the side door and was something I hadn't thought of. As you say the trusses are tight to the wall on either side so I agree the removal of the top part of the dividing wall will be a bit of a pain.The piers each side of the new side door are more to stop the brickwork cracking when the door gets slammed or blown shut in the wind. It's a long pice of wall that would just end at the new frame.
As for taking down the central wall , I suspect that will be a pita, juggling everything through the existing trusses, remembering that they are probably tight to the wall each side of it. It is going to be an awkward job rather than difficult.
Also check that any wind bracing is reinstated / altered as required when the wall is down.
037 said:
I would consider that quote cheap for a decent builder!
Was the builder recommended to you? If so, why not trust him to price what the job is worth to him?
I'm at the point of turning work away unless the customer is prepared to wait till the winter time so I imagine many builders are in a similar position.
As for the suggestions to manage the work yourself, who is going to tooth out the existing brickwork, prop the roof dig the footing correctly, insert the steel, etc....
Following from a thread on a similar topic a while ago, this is a perfect example of why I wouldn't itemise the labour cost on a quotation.
Take a pic of the door for us to see when completed.
Good luck.
This particular builder was not recommended to me - but I do have a second builder who was recommendd to me coming along on Tuesday to give a quote for the work. I know he is busy until September time which is probably a good sign from the point of view of him being popular. Builder No 1 is busy for the next month or so.Was the builder recommended to you? If so, why not trust him to price what the job is worth to him?
I'm at the point of turning work away unless the customer is prepared to wait till the winter time so I imagine many builders are in a similar position.
As for the suggestions to manage the work yourself, who is going to tooth out the existing brickwork, prop the roof dig the footing correctly, insert the steel, etc....
Following from a thread on a similar topic a while ago, this is a perfect example of why I wouldn't itemise the labour cost on a quotation.
Take a pic of the door for us to see when completed.
Good luck.
Re. the suggestion to manage the work myself, that was made by another poster and I certainly would not even consider it! I am fairly competent as a DIYer but would not tackle anything structural like this. I would probably end up with a large pile of rubble and no garage if I did.
I will of course keep the thread updated in terms of other quotes and pictures of the work if I decide to go ahead and have it done.
ETA - out of curiosity why would this make you less inclined to itemise your labour? From a clients point of view if I could see an itemised quote like the below, (purely by way of example, not that I think this is what this job will take) I would find it easier to follow :
1. Demolish retaining wall, 2 men for 1 day @ 120 per man per day
2. Digging footings, 2 men for half a day @ 150 per man per day
3. Etc etc
By way of contrast I work in a service based industry and am self employed, my fees are quoted based on the total work, but are based upon an hourly rate so if a client wants a breakdown of why X work will cost Y amount I can provide that breakdown.
I am not saying you are wrong in your approach, far from it, but I am genuinely interested.
Edited by soprano on Sunday 10th May 14:23
soprano said:
ETA - out of curiosity why would this make you less inclined to itemise your labour? From a clients point of view if I could see an itemised quote like the below, (purely by way of example, not that I think this is what this job will take) I would find it easier to follow :
1. Demolish retaining wall, 2 men for 1 day @ 120 per man per day
2. Digging footings, 2 men for half a day @ 150 per man per day
3. Etc etc
AS I and others have tried to point out, eg:1. Demolish retaining wall, 2 men for 1 day @ 120 per man per day
2. Digging footings, 2 men for half a day @ 150 per man per day
3. Etc etc
Busa mav said:
As for costs , they have just lumped a whole load of operations and costs in so as to give you a break down, for a job like this they aren't going to waste their time itemising every nut and bolt.
it's not worth it for a job like this. Building is unusual in that each job is unique and usually made up of a lot of small items. To give a proper break down would take a lot of time. Builders will do it for a multi-million pound job. As 037 pointed out if a builder gives a little bit of a breakdown it only leads to questions: jason about the beam cost, you about the labour, etc.You're expecting the builder to effectively design the job, price it, provide a fully itemised break down of costs which would include risk and profit and it just isn't going to happen.
IMO your best bet to know what you're getting would be to produce a drawing with supporting calcs and a basic spec written on the drg. Look at the recent thread about installing a window: some would turn the end bricks, some would just leave them, some would put in an outer and inner leaf lintol, some would put in a combined lintol, some wanted the plastering to be included etc.
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