DIY electrics

[rich83]

stuart313 said:

Doesn't sound right at all. Has each oven got its own 45? amp supply? or is it one supply that feeds 2 single sockets. If its a 45A breaker then the cable should be 10mm however I cant see them looping 10mm (or even 6mm) in and out of 2 single sockets.

If it was me doing it I would have run 2 x 2.5 supplies on 16A breakers and used a 20A DP switch for each oven.

We ran 6mm T+E to our cooker. SHould be ok :-)

[Harry H]

If many of these so called professionals actually turned up when they said they would and did the job in a reasonable way for reasonable rates then personally I'd rather be sat on my arse watching the telly than climbing about in the loft. It's not like that though is it.

After 10 phone calls someone, if your lucky will phone you back. Will arrange a time two weeks later to turn up and then on the day doesn't show cause he's in the middle of a big job and couldn't get a way/ got a better offer. So then you start the process all over again. Meantime the project has completely stalled and the Mrs is moaning cause you said it'd only take a couple of weekends and you'd have it done by the time her mother's coming to stay.

Put a new patio in recently so moved the pool house. All I needed was a bit of gas pipe laying and reconnecting both ends in the garden. Could I get someone to do it ? 11 phone calls and 3 no shows later I've got the patio guys held up cause they couldn't do the slab till the pipe was in when I had no choice but to do it myself. Never even got as far as worrying about the price this 1 hour job was going to cost "cause he must be minted if he's got a pool"

[EggsBenedict]

LookAtMyCat said:

Same with plumbing. People just look it up on the internet and think 'well, that sounds easy!'.

Don't mind; more work for me putting it all right

Unfortunately, in my case it's more work for me putting it right, after the plumber's made a mess of it.

I totally appreciate the views of the pro tradesmen on these forums. Often very insightful and useful, and the product of years of experience, which is often what you need, rather than a copy of the regs. However, as I alluded to before, finding a good accurate tradesman is not straightforward, and rather than go through the pain of finding someone competent (and on that journey potentially paying for the same job more than once), I'm inclined to give lots of things a go myself. The advice 'leave it to a pro' doesn't necessarily mean it gets done well.

I suppose I could ask the OP or LookAtMyCat how many times they've had to sort out a mess that another tradesman left? I've certainly had tradesman come into the house, look at another tradesman's work and suck teeth saying 'who did you get to do that?'.

[bigdom]

stuart313 said:

A reply to another thread has prompted me to ask this question:-

Why do so many of you tackle your own electrics when you clearly have not got a jar of glue?

Probably the same one's who quote the most obscure cockney rhyming slang term of that saying ever? Where's pot of glue, danny la rue, scooby do, didgeridoo?

Surely, within reason, it's a man right of passage to give something a go and learn how to look after their property, sometimes it's okay, sometimes it's not. There's plenty of resources for learning the basics.

I agree you need to be safe and be prudent, although coming to the end of an extension on my house, I find that most tradesman (well researched and rated) generally do the bare minimum. The builders criticised old work they were removing, same with the plumber, my mate who came in and did the electrics has mentioned on numerous occasions, he does things in peoples houses he wouldn't do in his, cutting of floorboards, how cables are chased or not etc, etc.

We found 3 live cooker feeds, one, just taped off with electrical tape that someone in the distant past thought was a good idea, might have been the previous owner (only been 1) or a sparkie, whatever, its fkwittery at best.

Similarly, whilst the plumber/gas engineer seemed to have completed some good work, some of it was just plain lazy, and I've redone it to my standards instead. A local boiler company that was on a servicing contract for the house prior to our purchase, were equally as useless, I believe they were just ripping the old dear off for many many years.

Could I have done all the electrics in my extension/kitchen build, yes I could. Did I have the time/ability to have it signed off by building regs, no I didn't.

I'm well ware, there are parts of electrics that require specialist assistance (and that's why you're trained), for other bits, it really is no more difficult than wiring a plug, although with wago and ideal connectors, far less 'wiring' to do these days.

[hairyben]

Alucidnation said:

However, most ovens loading can be calculated using diversity and with that, most will end up rated a lot less than the label states and probaby could run forever on a 13A plug.

Utter codswallop.

Diversity can be applied when multiple items are in use and not all likey to be used at once, for example a socket circuit with 10 13amp outlets doesn't need to be rated to 130 amps.

A cooker circuit loading may be calculated using a diversity formula; this is because a cooker circuit may supply a number of load-consuming items on it, for example an oven and 4 rings, not all of which are likely to be used at their highest load at the same time. You cannot apply diversity to a fixed load item, or for that matter it's "method of connection"- diversity applies only to circuit design load, and everything attached must meet that rating, although final connection flexes of smaller size are permitted when they meet the appliances max loading.

[hairyben]

Zulu 10 said:

Here we go again: the holier than thou outpourings of a qualified electrician.

I recently found that the so-called ‘professional electrician’ who wired up my new house seems to have forgotten to join the upstairs ring main together so that it does actually form a ring, and that in fact I’d got two 2.5mm2 spurs running off a 30A MCB.

Now it’s all very well to suggest that the occasional mistake happens, and I fully accept that, but this wasn’t one mistake it was at least two and possibly four instances of fkwittery committed by:
The monkey who wired it up – or rather didn’t!
The blindman who gave it a visual.
The halfwit who supposedly tested it.
The one trusted with the pen who oversigned it.

Thankfully it was me, a mere amateur, who has not been blessed with Part P amongst my post-nominals, who spotted the problem, whilst giving the house its annual test.

If I thought it would make a difference I’d report the cowboys to their professional body, but I’m sure they’d just close ranks and say that I shouldn’t have been conducting my own testing.

Engineering consultant hmm? Funny that, my pathetic ratty next door neighbour titles himself very simular, yet when he built his extension ballsed up the shared gutering so bad it now pisses all over my bay when it rains hard- the fool doesn't even understand water runs downhill... what a bunch of monkeys/blindmen/halfwits engineering consultants must be eh? I mean I know better than that and I'm just a lowly spark.

[Alucidnation]

hairyben said:

Alucidnation said:

However, most ovens loading can be calculated using diversity and with that, most will end up rated a lot less than the label states and probaby could run forever on a 13A plug.

Utter codswallop.

Diversity can be applied when multiple items are in use and not all likey to be used at once, for example a socket circuit with 10 13amp outlets doesn't need to be rated to 130 amps.

A cooker circuit loading may be calculated using a diversity formula; this is because a cooker circuit may supply a number of load-consuming items on it, for example an oven and 4 rings, not all of which are likely to be used at their highest load at the same time. You cannot apply diversity to a fixed load item, or for that matter it's "method of connection"- diversity applies only to circuit design load, and everything attached must meet that rating, although final connection flexes of smaller size are permitted when they meet the appliances max loading.

Im not actually sure what you are going on about.

You disagree but repeat (albeit with more detail than required in this instance) what i basically said.

TBH, I really can't even be bothered to argue with you.

Crack on with whatever works for you.

Edited by Alucidnation on Friday 15th May 17:42

[stuart313]

Ok I'm the first to admit a lot of bad electrical work is done by so called professional electricians, most of them I would imagine are the new breed type. You know the ones, spunk a couple of grand on a course and get registered somehow, they are then free to make your house a death trap.

Just last month we took a flat roof off a 2 year old extension to make it a pitched one, you should have seen the electrics (and everything else) done by the poles, I'm gutted I didn't take any pictures but it was as bad as I have ever seen, loads of junction boxes that looked like this



No certs, how did it ever get passed by building control.

However its definitely the DIYers that cock things up royally. Yesterdays was a cracker, the previous owner of the house had installed a couple of wall lights that the new owners wanted rid of. The bloke had taken a twin and earth between the light switch and the wall lights, when it dawned on him they wouldn't work because there was no neutral at the switch he just hacked into the ring main cable next to the nearest socket, butchered that cable and picked up his neutral from there. No RCD and just rewireable fuses Everything worked though so it must be OK.

[stuart313]

Alucidnation said:

hairyben said:

Alucidnation said:

However, most ovens loading can be calculated using diversity and with that, most will end up rated a lot less than the label states and probaby could run forever on a 13A plug.

Utter codswallop.

Diversity can be applied when multiple items are in use and not all likey to be used at once, for example a socket circuit with 10 13amp outlets doesn't need to be rated to 130 amps.

A cooker circuit loading may be calculated using a diversity formula; this is because a cooker circuit may supply a number of load-consuming items on it, for example an oven and 4 rings, not all of which are likely to be used at their highest load at the same time. You cannot apply diversity to a fixed load item, or for that matter it's "method of connection"- diversity applies only to circuit design load, and everything attached must meet that rating, although final connection flexes of smaller size are permitted when they meet the appliances max loading.

Im not actually sure what you are going on about.

You disagree but repeat (albeit with more detail than required in this instance) what i basically said.

TBH, I really can't even be bothered to argue with you.

Crack on with whatever works for you.

Edited by Alucidnation on Friday 15th May 17:42

You would only use diversity when calculating a total load for a main supply (or submain). You add the multiple circuits up after applying diversity to each one of them. You cant just use it to calculate the load for one circuit, the fuse and cable size have to be adequate to carry the full load of each appliance.

[hairyben]

Alucidnation said:

hairyben said:

Alucidnation said:

However, most ovens loading can be calculated using diversity and with that, most will end up rated a lot less than the label states and probaby could run forever on a 13A plug.

Utter codswallop.

Diversity can be applied when multiple items are in use and not all likey to be used at once, for example a socket circuit with 10 13amp outlets doesn't need to be rated to 130 amps.

A cooker circuit loading may be calculated using a diversity formula; this is because a cooker circuit may supply a number of load-consuming items on it, for example an oven and 4 rings, not all of which are likely to be used at their highest load at the same time. You cannot apply diversity to a fixed load item, or for that matter it's "method of connection"- diversity applies only to circuit design load, and everything attached must meet that rating, although final connection flexes of smaller size are permitted when they meet the appliances max loading.

Im not actually sure what you are going on about.

You disagree but repeat (albeit with more detail than required in this instance) what i basically said.

TBH, I really can't even be bothered to argue with you.

Crack on with whatever works for you.

Edited by Alucidnation on Friday 15th May 17:40

I didn't agree with you at all; fact is you haven't the faintest idea what diversity in respect of electrical design is and your misunderstanding of it with the assertion that overlimit loads can be put on a 13a plug is potentially very dangerous.

Stick to rarely giving advice if I were you.

[hairyben]

stuart313 said:

Ok I'm the first to admit a lot of bad electrical work is done by so called professional electricians,

There's loads of electrical being done by people who should have their hands chopped off for it frankly

But when and why did we start referring to them as "so-called professionals?" rather than cowboys?

A lot of people on his forum are guilty of it but in wider life we refer to them as chancers, cowboys, monkeys etc, rather than use a sneering term that implies a shadow over the whole industry.

[Alucidnation]

hairyben said:

Alucidnation said:

hairyben said:

Alucidnation said:

However, most ovens loading can be calculated using diversity and with that, most will end up rated a lot less than the label states and probaby could run forever on a 13A plug.

Utter codswallop.

Diversity can be applied when multiple items are in use and not all likey to be used at once, for example a socket circuit with 10 13amp outlets doesn't need to be rated to 130 amps.

A cooker circuit loading may be calculated using a diversity formula; this is because a cooker circuit may supply a number of load-consuming items on it, for example an oven and 4 rings, not all of which are likely to be used at their highest load at the same time. You cannot apply diversity to a fixed load item, or for that matter it's "method of connection"- diversity applies only to circuit design load, and everything attached must meet that rating, although final connection flexes of smaller size are permitted when they meet the appliances max loading.

Im not actually sure what you are going on about.

You disagree but repeat (albeit with more detail than required in this instance) what i basically said.

TBH, I really can't even be bothered to argue with you.

Crack on with whatever works for you.

Edited by Alucidnation on Friday 15th May 17:40

Stick to rarely giving advice if I were you.

Likewise.

[jason61c]

stuart313 said:

Ok I'm the first to admit a lot of bad electrical work is done by so called professional electricians, most of them I would imagine are the new breed type. You know the ones, spunk a couple of grand on a course and get registered somehow, they are then free to make your house a death trap.

Just last month we took a flat roof off a 2 year old extension to make it a pitched one, you should have seen the electrics (and everything else) done by the poles, I'm gutted I didn't take any pictures but it was as bad as I have ever seen, loads of junction boxes that looked like this

.

So AJH Electricians, how do you know it was "done by the poles"? Or was it a copy of the daily mail on your dashboard?

[stuart313]

jason61c said:

stuart313 said:

Ok I'm the first to admit a lot of bad electrical work is done by so called professional electricians, most of them I would imagine are the new breed type. You know the ones, spunk a couple of grand on a course and get registered somehow, they are then free to make your house a death trap.

Just last month we took a flat roof off a 2 year old extension to make it a pitched one, you should have seen the electrics (and everything else) done by the poles, I'm gutted I didn't take any pictures but it was as bad as I have ever seen, loads of junction boxes that looked like this

.

So AJH Electricians, how do you know it was "done by the poles"? Or was it a copy of the daily mail on your dashboard?

Firstly that just a random picture of the internet, as stated I didn't take my own pics of the wiring but nice piece of detective work there.

Secondly not only did it look like it was done by poles, the woman said she had Polish builders in to do the job in the first place so its a pretty safe bet they were poles. The brickwork was that wonky it had to be rendered.

[Yabu]

Zulu 10 said:

Here we go again: the holier than thou outpourings of a qualified electrician.

I recently found that the so-called ‘professional electrician’ who wired up my new house seems to have forgotten to join the upstairs ring main together so that it does actually form a ring, and that in fact I’d got two 2.5mm2 spurs running off a 30A MCB.

Now it’s all very well to suggest that the occasional mistake happens, and I fully accept that, but this wasn’t one mistake it was at least two and possibly four instances of fkwittery committed by:
The monkey who wired it up – or rather didn’t!
The blindman who gave it a visual.
The halfwit who supposedly tested it.
The one trusted with the pen who oversigned it.

Thankfully it was me, a mere amateur, who has not been blessed with Part P amongst my post-nominals, who spotted the problem, whilst giving the house its annual test.

If I thought it would make a difference I’d report the cowboys to their professional body, but I’m sure they’d just close ranks and say that I shouldn’t have been conducting my own testing.

It's not about electricians being holier than thou, there is an issue with bad workmanship and poorly trained people iwithin the industry, we see bad work done by "professional electricians" part p installers and diy'ers, but it is most likely to be the latter starting how do I fix/change this threads on a more general/non electrical forum forum like ph. I don't think anyone here has a problem with DIY electrical work being done, provided that the person understands what they are doing, what they have to do and it's safe for them to do it.

A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing with electric, there's plenty of threads here where people have had problems changing a light etc and got help doing so but there have also been cases where it has been obvious the op should not be attempting what they are looking at and have been advised to get someone in, sorry if you see this as holier than thou, it s not mean to be taken as such IMHO, but care must also be taken when giving advice over the internet to someone who may misunderstand it and do something dangerous thinking they are doing what has been described,

Take for an example your "missing" cable in a ring main as a scenario of where giving internet advice can be dangerous.

As op someone comes on ph and puts something like
"I have bought a new house and have to change all the sockets as swmbo wants fancy ones putting on, whilst doing this I have found 2 sockets on the ring main that only have 1 cable at each, I thought sockets were wired on a ring main, do I need to get cable and join the sockets together?"

Someone replies yes do that, easy job no need for an electrician turn power off at your board before you do it and all will be fine.

Electrician suggests this needs testing to see if it is a break in the ring or if the sockets spurred off the ring,

Op gets told its an electrician being ott and not wanting the op to do a very simple job and should be ignored,

Op asks whats needed to be done again and how to "test" it themselves,

Electrician replies,

Others reply no need for this,

Op decides to put cable in, posts done it and it works
/thread

Is there a missing leg in the ring main or have they crated a sub ring within the ring main

[LookAtMyCat]

It's funny; I got so much stick in another thread when I mentioned roughly what I earn as a heating engineer. And yet, reading many peoples views on professional tradesman, it should be no surprise that i'm as successful as I am and charge what I do.

I turn up when I say I do. I do the job correctly, to the highest standard, first time. No, you can't do it better than I can.

I will say though; very often we make decisions based on the customer, not the job. I'm booked for the next 2 months, so if I get some know-it-all ringing me, telling me he's already called 6 plumbers and telling me exactly what i'm going to be doing there and spouting off a reel of vague internet-gleaned knowledge, I won't ring them back. Not because of the job, it's because I don't want to bother with people like that (of which there seem to be a LOT of on PH) and i'm busy enough to make the choice that I don't have to. We don't lose sleep over customers like that. Generally they are nothing but trouble.

[Alucidnation]

Zulu 10 said:

We are therefore in a position where I apparently cannot do the work myself, but there is no enforced ongoing quality standard for those who are supposed to be professional.

You would be surprised at what Part P DOES actually allow you to do in your own home.

[rich83]

Im not sure why it ever became someone else's business what I do to the house that I bought.

[LookAtMyCat]

rich83 said:

Im not sure why it ever became someone else's business what I do to the house that I bought.

To stop you killing yourself/wife/kids because you think you know a lot more than you actually do.

[rich83]

LookAtMyCat said:

rich83 said:

Im not sure why it ever became someone else's business what I do to the house that I bought.

To stop you killing yourself/wife/kids because you think you know a lot more than you actually do.

Do you want to come and hold my hand when I get in my car and drive at 10 leptons? ;-)