Discussion
LookAtMyCat said:
I'm not an electrician so I don't know a huge amount about that trade, but it applies across any skilled trade. I do all my own electrics but only under 'essential electrics' (they clued up a lot of heating engineers did their own wiring).
I served 7 years as an apprentice with a heating engineer. I spent 11 months at college learning a book that is 3 inches thick and taking 8 exams to get my ACS for gas (which allows you to join Gas Safe). You might be a really clever guy. Really clever. You still, spending as much time as you like on the internet, reading books, will not come anywhere close to the knowledge or skill I have in this trade. And thinking you do; is the problem.
There are plenty of clever people about. I work for quite a few. Very wealthy guys who work in very technical fields. But, they're also clever enough to ring me up and pay for my services. Because they know full well I can do a better job in half the time and i've done it 100 times before.
I can't work out if it took you 7 years to complete an apprenticeship or if you took 7 years to become gas safe registered which people are doing in one month on the many courses around?I served 7 years as an apprentice with a heating engineer. I spent 11 months at college learning a book that is 3 inches thick and taking 8 exams to get my ACS for gas (which allows you to join Gas Safe). You might be a really clever guy. Really clever. You still, spending as much time as you like on the internet, reading books, will not come anywhere close to the knowledge or skill I have in this trade. And thinking you do; is the problem.
There are plenty of clever people about. I work for quite a few. Very wealthy guys who work in very technical fields. But, they're also clever enough to ring me up and pay for my services. Because they know full well I can do a better job in half the time and i've done it 100 times before.
Zulu 10 said:
hairyben said:
You'll find, if you care to enquire, the bulk of "my industry" (there you go again with your generalising) didn't like or want and certainly didn't campaign for the worthless waste of time that is part P and are as frustrated as anyone about it.
And what therefore is the industry doing in the way of campaigning and lobby to have it revoked/amended? Hmm, thought so…hairyben said:
Your attitude is like claiming it's unfair you can't drive a 40 ton lorry without an annoying licence while "proving" all lorry drivers are terrible because some of them have crashes.
I think your analogy is slightly adrift: What I claim is that I should be freely able to drive whatever I like within the confines of my own estate, admittedly 25 acres is a bit small for a 40 tonner, but you get the point.I also suggest that the industry body which oversees and licenses those who drive 40 tonners on the public highway should have in place a monitoring and oversight system which is capable of identifying and removing those who have crashes – and should be doing so!
I fully accept that if I wish to join them on the public highway in a 40 tonner I will need to demonstrate my competence and be licensed.
hairyben said:
You're correct in your point that new house may never have seen a qualified and/or professional sparks, I know as I've seen exactly how that little segment of the industry operate, but extrapolating it to attack the whole industry is asinine
And what demonstrably is the industry doing to rectify the shortcoming in this little segment of the industry?In summary, where I think we differ is in the definition of “the industry” for you I suspect are talking on behalf of the troops, whereas I’m upset by the behaviour of the trade bodies who claim to speak on your behalf, when in fact they’re operating to their own agenda, and an unfortunate consequence of that is the troops being tarred with the same brush.
Your new house wiring is a product of trying to do something with a ruthless attitude to achieving the least possible apparent cost and that will always impact the end result in any context. But it's pointless to argue, you obviously have a massive chip on your shoulder and want to hate this industry for whatever reasons you have.
uncinqsix said:
Simpo Two said:
And this is the rub - 'pros' thinking that everyone else is an incompetent idiot. Some are, some aren't. When I need help I'll get back-up - and I'm intelligent enough to know when I need help.
This. Few things are beyond the abilities of a competent DIYer who takes the time to find out exactly how to do the job right, and who knows his limits. Being technically inclined helps of course, and I think most people get into trouble because they don't know what they don't know. There's a trillion hidden things you can get wrong while still achieving that; there's dozens of factors a pro will consider even on apparently simple aspects of a job. It's a bit like learning how to drive- the driving licence doesn't mark the end of being a learner, it's a permit that you're considered safe enough to start learning properly. At the end of my 4 year apprenticeship I thought I knew it all and now I laugh at my foolish younger self when I consider what I've learned with 20 odd years experience, so reading some of the comments from the I-know-all-I-need-too-thank-you-very-much'ers on DIY forums does make one shake your head.
I've said in the past the work of the fastidious DIY'er can be some of the best, but alas that diligent approach is a thing of the past now; replaced by those with a sense of entitled "homebase shouldn't be allowed to sell me a fuseboard if I couldn't fit it" logic. People today in all walks expect to be protected from their own stupidity.
hairyben said:
I've said in the past the work of the fastidious DIY'er can be some of the best, but alas that diligent approach is a thing of the past now; replaced by those with a sense of entitled "homebase shouldn't be allowed to sell me a fuseboard if I couldn't fit it" logic.
On the same theme I find it boggling that you can wander into a B&Q and buy a circular saw. But I suppose at least you can see and hear the big pointy teeth going round, whereas electricity is invisible.hairyben said:
Well said, problem with electrics is, it's very simple to get something to "work", it flatters to deceive.
There's a trillion hidden things you can get wrong while still achieving that; there's dozens of factors a pro will consider even on apparently simple aspects of a job. It's a bit like learning how to drive- the driving licence doesn't mark the end of being a learner, it's a permit that you're considered safe enough to start learning properly. At the end of my 4 year apprenticeship I thought I knew it all and now I laugh at my foolish younger self when I consider what I've learned with 20 odd years experience, so reading some of the comments from the I-know-all-I-need-too-thank-you-very-much'ers on DIY forums does make one shake your head.
I've said in the past the work of the fastidious DIY'er can be some of the best, but alas that diligent approach is a thing of the past now; replaced by those with a sense of entitled "homebase shouldn't be allowed to sell me a fuseboard if I couldn't fit it" logic. People today in all walks expect to be protected from their own stupidity.
So hold on? You're a lot safer now than you were when you qualified? If you didn't know a lot then. So hope no-ones house blew up because of your inexperience.There's a trillion hidden things you can get wrong while still achieving that; there's dozens of factors a pro will consider even on apparently simple aspects of a job. It's a bit like learning how to drive- the driving licence doesn't mark the end of being a learner, it's a permit that you're considered safe enough to start learning properly. At the end of my 4 year apprenticeship I thought I knew it all and now I laugh at my foolish younger self when I consider what I've learned with 20 odd years experience, so reading some of the comments from the I-know-all-I-need-too-thank-you-very-much'ers on DIY forums does make one shake your head.
I've said in the past the work of the fastidious DIY'er can be some of the best, but alas that diligent approach is a thing of the past now; replaced by those with a sense of entitled "homebase shouldn't be allowed to sell me a fuseboard if I couldn't fit it" logic. People today in all walks expect to be protected from their own stupidity.
Pheo said:
So hold on? You're a lot safer now than you were when you qualified? If you didn't know a lot then. So hope no-ones house blew up because of your inexperience.
That's a bit harsh, everyone knows more as they get older. Same for airline pilots and surgeons. They qualify, but they still get better and learn more things.
Zulu 10 said:
When designing your installations, do you have to consider such things as interoperability, matching, EMC, SWAP and Red/Black separation? (and here's a clue: red/black separation doesn't mean not letting live and neutral touch)
When you do, then you can start lecturing some of the rest of us on how complicated your job is, and the dozens of things which you take into account, and how we shouldn't presume to be able to undertake such tasks ourselves.
Do DIYers (and the cowboys) have a loop tester and the regs book, do they bother themselves with Zs readings and if the protective device is going to trip in time. Do they bother to get the regs book out and look up graphs liken this.When you do, then you can start lecturing some of the rest of us on how complicated your job is, and the dozens of things which you take into account, and how we shouldn't presume to be able to undertake such tasks ourselves.
Do they ever do equations like this.
Are they even aware of different types of earthing arrangement like TT and how dangerous it can be? From what I have seen on my travels the answer is no, its very rare I come across anything done right nowadays.
To prove my point, tomorrow I am starting an extension and even though I have not even been to the job yet I will post up pictures of how bad the rest of the house wiring will be, I am that confident.
Simpo Two said:
stuart313 said:
its very rare I come across anything done right nowadays.
By that do you mean 'by the book' or merely safely?After all the book also says thou shalt not travel at 31 in a 30 - but it is usually safe to do so.
You could remove all the fuse and RCD protection and it would still operate safely. Its when something goes wrong that you find out whether it's safe or not.
Zulu 10 said:
hairyben said:
There's a trillion hidden things you can get wrong while still achieving that; there's dozens of factors a pro will consider even on apparently simple aspects of a job.
When designing your installations, do you have to consider such things as interoperability, matching, EMC, SWAP and Red/Black separation? (and here's a clue: red/black separation doesn't mean not letting live and neutral touch)When you do, then you can start lecturing some of the rest of us on how complicated your job is, and the dozens of things which you take into account, and how we shouldn't presume to be able to undertake such tasks ourselves.
hairyben said:
People today in all walks expect to be protected from their own stupidity.
Not all of us - I'd prefer it if Darwinian evolution was allowed to continue unfettered.What I would prefer is to be protected from the greed of trade bodies exploiting the legislative system in the name of safety.
Edited by Zulu 10 on Sunday 17th May 12:41
Going back to our analogy with lorry driving, thats like a 747 pilot claiming because he drives something bigger/far more complicated it should automatically entitle him to drive said lorry as it can't be more complex than what he knows/does.
As for the darwinism and stupidity and all that, it's academic, it's the rules we work to.
stuart313 said:
Do DIYers (and the cowboys) have a loop tester and the regs book ..........
Are they even aware of different types of earthing arrangement like TT and how dangerous it can be? From what I have seen on my travels the answer is no, its very rare I come across anything done right nowadays.
Well, just to prove a point, yes, I have a copy of the regs, and I do know what the earthing arrangement is in my house and what its implementation is.Are they even aware of different types of earthing arrangement like TT and how dangerous it can be? From what I have seen on my travels the answer is no, its very rare I come across anything done right nowadays.
I have a copy of the regs, because it's important to me that I understand what the regs are and why it matters. I know about the earthing arrangement, because when i bought the house, I paid an electrician to do a test of it. That included the test your machine does. I looked up what earthing arrangement I had in the relevant sections in the regs and combined with asking the elecrician about it, I now know.
For those interested, you can get the regs stuff here: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1849192871?psc=...
and here: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0415522099?psc=...
I have a copy of both.
EggsBenedict said:
Well, just to prove a point, yes, I have a copy of the regs, and I do know what the earthing arrangement is in my house and what its implementation is.
I have a copy of the regs, because it's important to me that I understand what the regs are and why it matters. I know about the earthing arrangement, because when i bought the house, I paid an electrician to do a test of it. That included the test your machine does. I looked up what earthing arrangement I had in the relevant sections in the regs and combined with asking the elecrician about it, I now know.
For those interested, you can get the regs stuff here: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1849192871?psc=...
and here: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0415522099?psc=...
I have a copy of both.
That's just an on site guide, a quick reference if you like, its also out of date (twice almost) the latest copy is yellow, but you already knew that.I have a copy of the regs, because it's important to me that I understand what the regs are and why it matters. I know about the earthing arrangement, because when i bought the house, I paid an electrician to do a test of it. That included the test your machine does. I looked up what earthing arrangement I had in the relevant sections in the regs and combined with asking the elecrician about it, I now know.
For those interested, you can get the regs stuff here: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1849192871?psc=...
and here: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0415522099?psc=...
I have a copy of both.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1849197695/ref=pd_lpo_s...
EggsBenedict said:
Have you seen the comments!!
I have now and I agree with them, I was just pointing out that people say they are up to date when they are far from it.Personally I still have the green copy of 7671 and OSG and I wont be updating to yellow until a day before my next assessment.
Simpo Two said:
That's a bit harsh, everyone knows more as they get older. Same for airline pilots and surgeons. They qualify, but they still get better and learn more things.
Yeah alright sorry I was grouchy after zapping myself doing some DIY electrics 
I guess there is an aspect here also of what is being attempted. I've swapped out standard ceiling roses for spotlights in our place. Into a (maintenance free) junction box, then to the spotlights. Not overly concerned about this. Most complicated thing I've done is another set of lights where we wanted three independently switched lights in our bedroom, so I took the incoming feed into a large junction box, and wired from there. Didn't do looped in because of ease of access (and maintenance) and also I want to add Zwave controllers soon - which would be an arse inside the light fitting (generally need a neutral).
This having been said, I wouldn't run any new circuits obviously, don't touch the bathroom, and wouldn't have considered the above if they had resulted in any significant level of increased load on the circuit because I know I'm not qualified enough to ensure it could be done safely.
But I do think writing of all DIYers is a bit like saying all electricians are excellent.
stuart313 said:
I have now and I agree with them, I was just pointing out that people say they are up to date when they are far from it.
Personally I still have the green copy of 7671 and OSG and I wont be updating to yellow until a day before my next assessment.
I'd suggest updating your copy of 7671 now, along with a new set of test sheets so that you are compliant with the changes that come into effect next month, revised values of zs and changed test sheets, or it could be an interesting time come your next assessment explains why you have been using out of date paperwork.Personally I still have the green copy of 7671 and OSG and I wont be updating to yellow until a day before my next assessment.
Yabu said:
stuart313 said:
I have now and I agree with them, I was just pointing out that people say they are up to date when they are far from it.
Personally I still have the green copy of 7671 and OSG and I wont be updating to yellow until a day before my next assessment.
I'd suggest updating your copy of 7671 now, along with a new set of test sheets so that you are compliant with the changes that come into effect next month, revised values of zs and changed test sheets, or it could be an interesting time come your next assessment explains why you have been using out of date paperwork.Personally I still have the green copy of 7671 and OSG and I wont be updating to yellow until a day before my next assessment.
As for Zs values, this is idiotic, they have changed by 5% which is something like 0.05 or so on a 32A "B", whats the point, everyone knew the old values off by heart. And anyway practically everything is covered by RCDs in the domestic environment nowadays so exceeding the max Zs is neither here nor there. The max you could theoretically have is 1667 ohms on an RCD protected circuit, although they have probably changed that figure as well.
Its just more dreampt up b
ks to sell more books to keep themselves in jobs. In 2 years they will tell us that the regulations we have currently are all wrong and need to be altered and everyone has to go on an update course.Zulu 10 said:
stuart313 said:
Do DIYers (and the cowboys) have a loop tester and the regs book, do they bother themselves with Zs readings and if the protective device is going to trip in time. Do they bother to get the regs book out and look up graphs liken this.
I'm so glad you asked that, because yes I do possess a loop tester, a CB tester and an insulation tester, and yes I have referred to my regs when I'm unsure.Not only that but I could probably, if pushed, explain the impedance calculation from first principles.
I share your frustration, but understand a lot of the regulations are to save some people from themselves.
Photos from today as promised, haven't been inside the main house yet, these are just from the old garage/utility area that is being altered/extended.
Couple of striplights etc were wired from this supply cable above dropped ceiling.
various cables badly jointed.
Generally it's a mess as I knew it would be. Although they need disconnecting/removing anyway for the new work I will now have to spend extra time crawling around a damp subfloor trying to work out where they all go, not something I like doing funnily enough.
Couple of striplights etc were wired from this supply cable above dropped ceiling.
various cables badly jointed.
Generally it's a mess as I knew it would be. Although they need disconnecting/removing anyway for the new work I will now have to spend extra time crawling around a damp subfloor trying to work out where they all go, not something I like doing funnily enough.
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