Fixing showEr tray leak - retrofit upstand?

Fixing showEr tray leak - retrofit upstand?

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Pheo

Original Poster:

3,324 posts

201 months

Saturday 4th July 2015
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So we are somewhat peeved this morning to see that our shower tray deal has failed again - manifesting in our hallway as a damp patch on the wall

This happened before - last time due to a trickle of water down the wall from the shower tray. Builder who installed and renovated the bathroom redid the silicone and we left it for 72houra to cure. However it looks like there is still too much movement in the tray for the silicone.

Tray is down onto a bed of mortar above 12mm ply ontop of the original floorboard. During the last repair they also chocked the tray at the edge between it and the wall underneath as the floorboards ran out and it was unsupported.

Now we have the same problem again - except now the hallway has been plastered and painted and carpets installed. So not best pleased.

Any thoughts on how we could adjust things to permanently seal the tray? I was wondering if we could remove the bottom row of tiles (we have spares) and fit an upstand of some sort? Or is the only option to have them take the tray out? (Major job, limestone tiled floor with electric underfloor heating... Which could get damaged.

Sigh - sometimes you just wish you'd done it yourself! Thoughts welcome!

Gingerbread Man

9,171 posts

212 months

Saturday 4th July 2015
quotequote all
Shower screen off.

First row of tiles off.

Silicone tray to the wall. Let it set. 12 hours, 24 most, not 70 odd!

Then tile.

Silicone the tile to tray joint all around.

Also up any corners as grout cracks, so any walls that meet.

Refit screen with a beed of silicone wiggling up the bavk of the profile and a line the width of the profile where the profile will sit on the tray, butting up against the tiles. Also a squirt where your plugs or screw holes are.

Silicone the outside of the shower screen/ wall profiles only, not the inside.

Let it set for 24 hours.

Should be sound. This assumes your waste and trap is fine.



yellowtang

1,772 posts

137 months

Saturday 4th July 2015
quotequote all
Personally I'd take the tray out - 12mm ply, straight onto floorboards is never likely to be a stable base.

Cut out the floorboards and screw 18mm ply (or thicker) to the joists instead. Did the guy tile down behind the tray or ontop? I assume it's a cast tray that we're talking about here?

ch427

8,857 posts

232 months

Saturday 4th July 2015
quotequote all
They probably just rammed some offcuts of wood in to support the tray which has now worked loose.
Do you have any room underneath the tray to be able to insert some bracing and adjustable legs?

daytona365

1,773 posts

163 months

Saturday 4th July 2015
quotequote all
A lot of builders just rely on silicone to seal. What's needed is an adequate overlap of the tiling onto the top of the tray, the more the better, but at least say 15mm all round, then just the merest sliver of silicone will seal any remaining chance of leakage.

Pheo

Original Poster:

3,324 posts

201 months

Sunday 5th July 2015
quotequote all
To try and answer some of the questions here:

- Its a cast tray. Low profile so no room for legs, but also I thought (prhaps wrongly!) less likely to flex and cause issues
- I think I've spotted where the silicone has pulled away from the tray and tiles (this silicone is 2 months old so shouldn't do this)
- They have tiled onto the top of the tray, not behind it
- I'm guessing they didn't silicone the wall/tray join, but can't be sure.

So I guess we have a couple of options:

- Silicone it again - probably not a good plan
- Try a polyuthrene sealant which stays flexible e.g. Sikaflex EBT+ or similar
- Bottom row of tiles off, seal between wall and tray, re-tile and then silicone/EBT
- Rip the tray out and start again

I figure probably ought to work down these solutions (e.g. if the poly sealant works then we don't need to do the disruptive works, if it doesn't. little is lost)

yellowtang

1,772 posts

137 months

Sunday 5th July 2015
quotequote all
The problem may not be the tray flexing but rather, it's the floor beneath it, which its attached to that's probably moving.

A cast tray can flex a little, but not usually very much, if it's properly supported.

As others have said, the first point of call should be to remove the bottom row of tiles to see if the tray is (or rather was) properly siliconed to the wall.

The problem could also be down to movement in the wall, causing the seal between tray to fail. Stud wall or solid?

roofer

5,136 posts

210 months

Sunday 5th July 2015
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I used a version of this on mine,

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_7uL5g_8x8U

Then butyl sealant, then some more Dow Corning 1081 with a trim pressed into it. If it wasn't for the height, I could have a bath in it biggrin

Pheo

Original Poster:

3,324 posts

201 months

Sunday 5th July 2015
quotequote all
Solid on the wall with the leak, other wall is aqua panel stud wall

yellowtang

1,772 posts

137 months

Sunday 5th July 2015
quotequote all
From the info you've given, I strongly suspect that the floorboards are the cause. Softwood boards move. A lot!

Pheo

Original Poster:

3,324 posts

201 months

Sunday 5th July 2015
quotequote all
yellowtang said:
From the info you've given, I strongly suspect that the floorboards are the cause. Softwood boards move. A lot!
It seems pretty solid although detecting really small movements would admittedly be hard.

Atleast I hope it's not that because if it is we might as well start again!!

yellowtang

1,772 posts

137 months

Sunday 5th July 2015
quotequote all
Putting a shower tray onto 12mm ply, sitting on floorboards is a bodge job. A decent builder/plumber wouldn't do it.

Goodness knows what other daft things he might have done! Any of which will be the cause of your leak.

The fact is that the tray is leaking (again) and given you've paid a pro to do it....... there is no excuse. I really would just rip it out and do it (or have a competent person do it) properly. Once.

Spudler

3,985 posts

195 months

Sunday 5th July 2015
quotequote all
Also download the installation manual from the screen manufacturer and check it was siliconed correctly, not all are gnned up the same way.

rovermorris999

5,195 posts

188 months

Sunday 5th July 2015
quotequote all
How deep are the joists? If it's an old Victorian house they can sometimes be amazingly weak. Does the floor bounce in the room if you jump up and down on it?

Pheo

Original Poster:

3,324 posts

201 months

Monday 6th July 2015
quotequote all
Does a bit, but its a 1970s council house, so joists on 400mm centers, pretty decent size joists although I can't for the life of me remember the exact size.

But it is possible there is flex in the floor. They did seem to be doing a good job of screwing the ply down (I think they had a screw every 10cm or so.

Sigh, will get them back then, ask them to take the bottom row of tiles off, seal properly, then re-tile and re-seal and seal maybe...

MyM2006

222 posts

143 months

Monday 6th July 2015
quotequote all
Our shower tray kept leaking, mainly due to to the base it was on flexing slightly. The only fix I could find which worked was teleseal edging, you bond one part to the tray and another to the wall and then there is a fascia trim that clips over both, this allows the tray to move up and down slightly without stressing and breaking the seal.
Has been good for 5 years or so now, previously it would always leak after 6-12 months, it may not look great but it saves a ruined ceiling.

seeby

1,807 posts

169 months

Monday 6th July 2015
quotequote all
yellowtang said:
Putting a shower tray onto 12mm ply, sitting on floorboards is a bodge job. ....... there is no excuse.
Exactly ! This is where I would start from .Take the tray out ,get it solid and sealed and go from there,otherwise you will be forever bodging up a bodge. wink

Pheo

Original Poster:

3,324 posts

201 months

Monday 6th July 2015
quotequote all
Builders response was that our shower tray must be warped and that would be the problem. They are just suggesting sealing it again. Don't see how warping should be an issue... Even if it was, they bedded it in mortar so that would take any rock out.

Sigh this is going to be great fun isn't it. Might consider that telesales above, don't really have the money to rip it all out and start again.

Next time I'll just do the thing myself.

Neil - YVM

1,310 posts

198 months

Tuesday 7th July 2015
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Gingerbread Man said:
Shower screen off.

First row of tiles off.

Silicone tray to the wall. Let it set. 12 hours, 24 most, not 70 odd!

Then tile.

Silicone the tile to tray joint all around.

Also up any corners as grout cracks, so any walls that meet.

Refit screen with a beed of silicone wiggling up the bavk of the profile and a line the width of the profile where the profile will sit on the tray, butting up against the tiles. Also a squirt where your plugs or screw holes are.

Silicone the outside of the shower screen/ wall profiles only, not the inside.

Let it set for 24 hours.

Should be sound. This assumes your waste and trap is fine.
This is the best way forward, and how it should have been done in the first place.

Use decent sealant, and be generous. sealant often fails as joint is too small/thin.
We use Dow Corning 785 for white, Yasmin and clear, and Mapei Mapesil for coloured.


Pheo, if the tray is mortar bedded it would not matter if the tray is warped.

12mm ply over original boards should be fine, though we would usually replace, but more to keep the height to a minimum.