What am I legally allowed to do?
Discussion
I'm a pretty good DIY'er and have refurbed a couple of my own BTL's over the years. Installed heating, kitchens and bathrooms and replumbed, rewired plugs and extended circuits, put in new windows etc etc all to high standards. Only thing I've not done is make gas connections but I've installed gas boilers and all the plumbing, just left the actual gas bit to a CORGI bloke.
A good friend of mine has bought a property that he's going to convert to offices and has asked me if I want to do the electrics. He wants waist high trunking round all the rooms so he can have desks and PC's against the wall. Though I'm sure I could do it, am I allowed to? It'll probably also need a new consumer unit spurred into the existing. Can I legally do that? I'll research cable sizes and details, but it's the question of liability that's concerning me.
Any ideas would be much appreciated. But please don't tell me to leave it to a feshnal I can do with the work
A good friend of mine has bought a property that he's going to convert to offices and has asked me if I want to do the electrics. He wants waist high trunking round all the rooms so he can have desks and PC's against the wall. Though I'm sure I could do it, am I allowed to? It'll probably also need a new consumer unit spurred into the existing. Can I legally do that? I'll research cable sizes and details, but it's the question of liability that's concerning me.
Any ideas would be much appreciated. But please don't tell me to leave it to a feshnal I can do with the work
Unless you are qualified and have the proper certificates you can not do this legally.
Its termed a fixed installation - and are you fully aware and understand the BS7671 regulations and what these mean ?
Im time served as a sparkie and have worked in facilities maintennance for a number of years and have seen some pretty dire home improvements in my time. If it were me then I would probably see if I could do it and then have it inspected by a qualified electrician. Id not do it myself if I was unqualified.
http://www.electrical-testing.co.uk/p/articles/diy...
Its termed a fixed installation - and are you fully aware and understand the BS7671 regulations and what these mean ?
Im time served as a sparkie and have worked in facilities maintennance for a number of years and have seen some pretty dire home improvements in my time. If it were me then I would probably see if I could do it and then have it inspected by a qualified electrician. Id not do it myself if I was unqualified.
http://www.electrical-testing.co.uk/p/articles/diy...
I would be cautious in a BTL situation, but in my own home I do things myself if I feel I have sufficient understanding of the technical details and the practical skill to make a decent job of it.
If I don't think I can produce a system that will be safe, reliable, durable and economic to operate, then I'll engage a suitably qualified person to do it.
If I don't think I can produce a system that will be safe, reliable, durable and economic to operate, then I'll engage a suitably qualified person to do it.
Part P won't apply as it's not a domestic dwelling.
However, can you class yourself as "competent"?
Do you know all the requirements of BS7671?
Can you carry out the required tests to complete a certificate?
Are you prepared to be sued if something goes wrong and someone gets hurt from your work, or a fire is caused.
(I doubt you would get insurance with no qualifications)
I doubt your friends insurance company would be happy with DIY electrics!!
However, can you class yourself as "competent"?
Do you know all the requirements of BS7671?
Can you carry out the required tests to complete a certificate?
Are you prepared to be sued if something goes wrong and someone gets hurt from your work, or a fire is caused.
(I doubt you would get insurance with no qualifications)
I doubt your friends insurance company would be happy with DIY electrics!!
As others have pointed out, part P does not apply to any property other than a 'dwellinghouse'.
4.—(1) All systems shall at all times be of such construction as to prevent, so far as is reasonably practicable, danger.
There is no indication of how this is achieved, however, if you comply with BS 7671, it would demonstrate compliance with EAWR.
Colin, the problem you have is if something does go wrong, and you haven't followed BS 7671, the onus is on you to prove you have not been not been negligent.
To conclude, there is no legal requirement for you to be qualified or registered to undertake commercial electrical work. If it goes wrong, you really are in the sh*t. I strongly advise your mate employs a professional.
ruggedscotty said:
Unless you are qualified and have the proper certificates you can not do this legally.
Its termed a fixed installation - and are you fully aware and understand the BS7671 regulations and what these mean ?
Im time served as a sparkie and have worked in facilities maintennance for a number of years and have seen some pretty dire home improvements in my time. If it were me then I would probably see if I could do it and then have it inspected by a qualified electrician. Id not do it myself if I was unqualified.
http://www.electrical-testing.co.uk/p/articles/diy...
Then you should know your opening statement is incorrect! There is no regulation whatsoever determining who can undertake electrical works, other than in the case of self-certifying works that fall under part P of the building regs. BS 7671 is not a legal requirement either, however, electrical installations fall under the Electricity at Work Regulations, which say:Its termed a fixed installation - and are you fully aware and understand the BS7671 regulations and what these mean ?
Im time served as a sparkie and have worked in facilities maintennance for a number of years and have seen some pretty dire home improvements in my time. If it were me then I would probably see if I could do it and then have it inspected by a qualified electrician. Id not do it myself if I was unqualified.
http://www.electrical-testing.co.uk/p/articles/diy...
4.—(1) All systems shall at all times be of such construction as to prevent, so far as is reasonably practicable, danger.
There is no indication of how this is achieved, however, if you comply with BS 7671, it would demonstrate compliance with EAWR.
Colin, the problem you have is if something does go wrong, and you haven't followed BS 7671, the onus is on you to prove you have not been not been negligent.
R1 Indy said:
I doubt your friends insurance company would be happy with DIY electrics!!
I work for a loss adjuster; I am a member of a team of specialists who provide advice to the adjusters on such matters. An insurer would not normally specify all works have to be carried out by a qualified electrician in the policy. The OP's mate would be fine, but the OP wouldn't! If the place caught fire, we would send in a forensic investigator to establish cause. If it was found to be an electrical fault, the insurer would still pay out, but they would then seek a recovery. I am assuming the OP does not have suitable liability insurance for this job.To conclude, there is no legal requirement for you to be qualified or registered to undertake commercial electrical work. If it goes wrong, you really are in the sh*t. I strongly advise your mate employs a professional.
bit it is DIY or cowboy if your not qualified to do the task -
So would you go and pull a tumour out of someones lung if you were asked ? This is the crux - people think that they know electrics and that they can do it- but when it comes down to it if its a commercial installation then the goalposts change.
Whats the maximum distance a radial circuit can be ? how many sockets are you allowed and what is the cable size. protection of cable ?containment ? last socket in the radial you do a polarity test and take your earth loop and your PSC readings - does that tie in with the disconnection times for the circuit breaker used. Does an RCD need to be fitted ? any sinks in the room ?
Its not a case of going to B&Q and picking up a few bits and bobs and throwing it in. Your talking about putting in an installation to a property that has the capacity to kill or to do some serious damage.....
So would you go and pull a tumour out of someones lung if you were asked ? This is the crux - people think that they know electrics and that they can do it- but when it comes down to it if its a commercial installation then the goalposts change.
Whats the maximum distance a radial circuit can be ? how many sockets are you allowed and what is the cable size. protection of cable ?containment ? last socket in the radial you do a polarity test and take your earth loop and your PSC readings - does that tie in with the disconnection times for the circuit breaker used. Does an RCD need to be fitted ? any sinks in the room ?
Its not a case of going to B&Q and picking up a few bits and bobs and throwing it in. Your talking about putting in an installation to a property that has the capacity to kill or to do some serious damage.....
^^ knew it wouldn't be long before the professionals arrived on their high horses [
], but equating electrics with surgery? Come off it!
If you're going to go the route of doing some of the work, and then letting a 'pro' do the connecting up, I'd talk to the 'pro' first to make sure he's up for it.
I'm fortunate that the guy who does my electrics is fine with me going over what I want do do first, doing lots of it, and then having him come and do the interesting bits. Oddly he doesn't like farting about in dusty lofts and chasing out walls...
], but equating electrics with surgery? Come off it!If you're going to go the route of doing some of the work, and then letting a 'pro' do the connecting up, I'd talk to the 'pro' first to make sure he's up for it.
I'm fortunate that the guy who does my electrics is fine with me going over what I want do do first, doing lots of it, and then having him come and do the interesting bits. Oddly he doesn't like farting about in dusty lofts and chasing out walls...
The wording in the regs amendment has changed from competent to skilled ...
"Good workmanship by competent persons or persons under their supervision and proper materials shall be used in the erection of the electrical installation. Electrical equipment shall be installed in accordance with the instructions provided by the manufacturer of the equipment."
To
"Good workmanship by skilled (electrically) or instructed (electrically) persons and proper materials shall be used in the erection of the electrical installation. The installation of electrical equipment shall take account of manufacturers’ instructions."
"Good workmanship by competent persons or persons under their supervision and proper materials shall be used in the erection of the electrical installation. Electrical equipment shall be installed in accordance with the instructions provided by the manufacturer of the equipment."
To
"Good workmanship by skilled (electrically) or instructed (electrically) persons and proper materials shall be used in the erection of the electrical installation. The installation of electrical equipment shall take account of manufacturers’ instructions."
AS said, part "P" doesn't apply because non domestic doesn't come under building control as far as electrics are concerned (unless there are domestic premiss attached electrically to the commercial bit, like a flat over a shop etc).
However the wiring regs have changed to say people that install stuff have to be skilled, ie qualified as opposed to the earlier regs that said they have to be competent. However the regs are just that, regulations, they have no standing in law, unlike gas which is an ACT.
It will all boil down to what happens in court if you are facing any sort of charges of negligence or manslaughter. The prosecution will hold up the regs book and ask you if you followed them, if you didn't your only defence will be if you can prove you did the electrics in some other way which was equally as safe as the regs, if you can't then you are stuffed.
However the wiring regs have changed to say people that install stuff have to be skilled, ie qualified as opposed to the earlier regs that said they have to be competent. However the regs are just that, regulations, they have no standing in law, unlike gas which is an ACT.
It will all boil down to what happens in court if you are facing any sort of charges of negligence or manslaughter. The prosecution will hold up the regs book and ask you if you followed them, if you didn't your only defence will be if you can prove you did the electrics in some other way which was equally as safe as the regs, if you can't then you are stuffed.
EggsBenedict said:
^^ knew it wouldn't be long before the professionals arrived on their high horses [], but equating electrics with surgery? Come off it!
If you're going to go the route of doing some of the work, and then letting a 'pro' do the connecting up, I'd talk to the 'pro' first to make sure he's up for it.
I'm fortunate that the guy who does my electrics is fine with me going over what I want do do first, doing lots of it, and then having him come and do the interesting bits. Oddly he doesn't like farting about in dusty lofts and chasing out walls...
Theres a gulf between a bit of DIYerey, perhaps changing a few sockets and light switches, a couple of threads I like to think I've given some helpfull advice on today, and designing a new installation. Any fool can join wires but experience & knowledge really comes into play the bigger things get, but given the OP's "mate" is considering using an unqualified chap with a bit of DIY experience for such an install and the OP doesn't evan understand the basic premis of part P (but definitely knows all he needs to, right?) my advice would be unwelcome and wasted.], but equating electrics with surgery? Come off it!If you're going to go the route of doing some of the work, and then letting a 'pro' do the connecting up, I'd talk to the 'pro' first to make sure he's up for it.
I'm fortunate that the guy who does my electrics is fine with me going over what I want do do first, doing lots of it, and then having him come and do the interesting bits. Oddly he doesn't like farting about in dusty lofts and chasing out walls...
I have refurbed many commercial properties over the years and it is becoming more common for building control to ask for electrical certificates, even though Part P does not strictly apply.
But anyway, go for it OP, there are plenty of people on the internet that can describe what you need to do eh.
But anyway, go for it OP, there are plenty of people on the internet that can describe what you need to do eh.
Alucidnation said:
I have refurbed many commercial properties over the years and it is becoming more common for building control to ask for electrical certificates, even though Part P does not strictly apply.
But anyway, go for it OP, there are plenty of people on the internet that can describe what you need to do eh.
It doesn't loosely apply either.But anyway, go for it OP, there are plenty of people on the internet that can describe what you need to do eh.
The surgon thing was tongue in cheek - as for arriving on a high horse ? thought it was cowboys that rode horses....
Electrical installations are best left to the pros - seriously. If you want to cut costs and such sometimes if you know a good contractor then you could always arrange to have them complete the installation and you do all the work. Do you have the required test equipment to finalise the installation ? if not then Id repeat it is best left well alone.
I did go in a do a couple of tests on a new installation and the PSC readings obtained were too low = this has the effect of lengthening the time it takes for a circuit breaker to trip. And that lets through more energy - The fault was traced to a socket connection - radial circuit so no ring for another path was present. If it had been joe doe with his trusty tool box then that fault would not have been picked up. And it could have been there for sometime before it had an effect.
As said there is a lot to go through and if you get the right advice and install it properly then fair do, however its not about a neat installation - its more than that - its a safe installation that meets with the regulations and the fitted components are all properly rated and chosen to complete it and ensure that it complies with the requirements.
Electrical installations are best left to the pros - seriously. If you want to cut costs and such sometimes if you know a good contractor then you could always arrange to have them complete the installation and you do all the work. Do you have the required test equipment to finalise the installation ? if not then Id repeat it is best left well alone.
I did go in a do a couple of tests on a new installation and the PSC readings obtained were too low = this has the effect of lengthening the time it takes for a circuit breaker to trip. And that lets through more energy - The fault was traced to a socket connection - radial circuit so no ring for another path was present. If it had been joe doe with his trusty tool box then that fault would not have been picked up. And it could have been there for sometime before it had an effect.
As said there is a lot to go through and if you get the right advice and install it properly then fair do, however its not about a neat installation - its more than that - its a safe installation that meets with the regulations and the fitted components are all properly rated and chosen to complete it and ensure that it complies with the requirements.
Edited by ruggedscotty on Tuesday 7th July 02:06
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