What am I legally allowed to do?

[Muncher]

I don't think there's anything wrong with taking advice from a friendly spark, running all the cables, putting all the boxes in, connecting it up to test and leaving someone else to come in and test and commission it.

[Ganglandboss]

daytona365 said:

Got to play exactly by the rules. All these 'professionals' don't like to see their profit margins being compromised by 'non professional' persons doing DIY however simple.

The only rules that apply are the EAWR, with BS 7671 being a de facto requirement. As I have said, there is no legal definition of what constitutes skilled or qualified, and there is no statutory regulation of electricians in a commercial environment. If the OP constructs an installation that does not, so far as reasonably practicable, give rise to danger, he has acted within the law, irrespective of what BS 7671, the NICEIC, ECA, ESC, NAPIT or IET say (to name a few). As I pointed out in my earlier post though, when the st hits the fan and the OP is in the dock, the burden of proof is on him to show what he installed was safe.

As I said, earlier, I work in loss adjusting now, and my bread and butter is electrical fires. It's no skin off my nose if a contractor misses out on the opportunity to work.

jason61c said:

As long as you do it to current standards what's the issue? I understand the issues if he's just going to go and bodge it, if he does then its on his head, if its done correctly where does the problem sit? Its not difficult to do it that way if you can read

BS 7671:2008 is an A4 book, a little under 3/4" thick. Is the OP going to read it cover to cover before starting the work? I have certainly never done so, and neither will most sparks. What you need to know about the regs is a) the everyday stuff, b) when you need to refer to them, c) where to find the information you need, and d) how to interpret the information. The regs are a three hundred and odd snore-fest of technical jargon - they are not light reading, nor are they a practical guide to electrical safety.

I see a lot of electrical fires caused by the poor workmanship of amateurs. In 100% of cases, the installer never thought what he was doing was unsafe. The trouble with electrics is anybody with a basic understanding of parallel circuits from GCSE physics can get power from point A to point B, and can make something work; it does not mean they understand how to prevent electric shock, overheating, or how to select the cables, containment or protective devices that prevent it happening.

You are right to say if it goes wrong, it is on the OP's head. The OP has asked for advice and he has got it. As usual, the amateurs have offered some incorrect, but well meaning advice, and the professionals have given a reasoned opinion of while this is not a good idea.

By the way, it is not only on the OP's head. The landlord is defined in law as the 'duty holder' and he has the ultimate responsibility to provide installations that do not give rise to danger. He discharges that duty by employing competent contractors. If there is a fire and somebody is killed - he will be stood in the dock with the OP.

I can really see why Ferg got fed up with this sort of ste and fked off.

Colin, I hope you have the advice you wanted, and I hope you understand the reasons why this should be left to professionals.

[EggsBenedict]

ruggedscotty said:

The surgon thing was tongue in cheek - as for arriving on a high horse ? thought it was cowboys that rode horses....

Electrical installations are best left to the pros - seriously. If you want to cut costs and such sometimes if you know a good contractor then you could always arrange to have them complete the installation and you do all the work. Do you have the required test equipment to finalise the installation ? if not then Id repeat it is best left well alone.

Edited by ruggedscotty on Tuesday 7th July 02:06

Apologies if this came across wrong. I get a bit fed up with these threads, and it's always about electrics.

There always seems to be at least one spark who comes across as if NASA is finding it hard to find rocket scientists because clearly all of them have gone off to become electricians as it's a greater challenge than sending people into space.

Then there are people who say "yeah go for it, screw the nanny state"

Then it comes to "well you pay peanuts you get monkeys, I charge 4 billion pounds a day"

Then "I just came back from an installation where a DIY'er had connected a 6.5mm cable direct from the mains to his bathtub" etc.

It just gets boring.

Your advice is good, BTW, and it basically comes down to "if you're asking an internet forum about it, then you probably shouldn't be attempting it on your own"

However, in the more general sense, if you are interested in doing your own electrics, there are books on the subject that are worth a read. There are specialist tools you can buy (...and who doesn't like buying tools?). But it's worth pointing out that it's an excellent idea to have a qualified professional check your work.

[richie99]

stuart313 said:

AS said, part "P" doesn't apply because non domestic doesn't come under building control as far as electrics are concerned (unless there are domestic premiss attached electrically to the commercial bit, like a flat over a shop etc).

However the wiring regs have changed to say people that install stuff have to be skilled, ie qualified as opposed to the earlier regs that said they have to be competent. However the regs are just that, regulations, they have no standing in law, unlike gas which is an ACT.

It will all boil down to what happens in court if you are facing any sort of charges of negligence or manslaughter. The prosecution will hold up the regs book and ask you if you followed them, if you didn't your only defence will be if you can prove you did the electrics in some other way which was equally as safe as the regs, if you can't then you are stuffed.

I agree that significant electrical work should be left to the pros. However, I don't agree with you that 'skilled' means 'qualified', the two are entirely different things. In fact plenty of definitions of skilled refer to competent and vice versa. Eg Oxford dictionary on competent says 'Having the necessary ability, knowledge, or skill to do something successfully:'. the change in wording might have been aimed at protecting qualified electricians from competition, and probably started as qualified but had to be watered down, but I'm not sure it achieves that.

[Collectingbrass]

Muncher said:

I don't think there's anything wrong with taking advice from a friendly spark, running all the cables, putting all the boxes in, connecting it up to test and leaving someone else to come in and test and commission it.

Can't see many sparks being all too friendly when they work out you're doing them out of 75% of the value for them in a job.

OP, you're heading for a fall. It doesn't matter how good you are, as soon as someone gets hurt (even off a cheap & faulty Chinese charger they bought on flea bay) you'll get sued and if you can't demonstrate competence your insurance (if you have any) will not pay out. Do you really want to bet your house for a mate's rates favour?

Definition of electrical competence straight from the HSE's own guidance for electrical work:
(http://www.hse.gov.uk/electricity/faq.htm)

[i]Working with electricity

How do I know if someone is competent to do electrical work?

A person can demonstrate competence to perform electrical work if they have successfully completed an assessed training course, run by an accredited training organisation, that included the type of work being considered. As part of that course, this person should have demonstrated an ability to understand electrical theory and put this into practice.

A successfully completed electrical apprenticeship, with some post-apprenticeship experience, is a good way of demonstrating competence for general electrical work. More specialised work, such as maintenance of high-voltage switchgear or control system modification, is almost certainly likely to require additional training and experience.
[/i]
OP from what you've written this isn't you.

@ everyone else, yes electricity isn't surgery, but that's because you don't have to dress up like a doctor to kill people with it.

[Muncher]

But they are having to do 75% less work for it, their rate stays the same.

[jason61c]

Muncher said:

But they are having to do 75% less work for it, their rate stays the same.

Thats the point isn't it. The busy sparkys I know are happy about not having to spend a week dragging cables through buildings, doing the donkey work. They make more money doing the final connections/inspecting/commissioning. They also keep their hands cleaner

[Muncher]

jason61c said:

Thats the point isn't it. The busy sparkys I know are happy about not having to spend a week dragging cables through buildings, doing the donkey work. They make more money doing the final connections/inspecting/commissioning. They also keep their hands cleaner

Exactly, it's about paying a premium rate for their skill, which is in the commissioning and testing part. It makes no sense charging the the same premium rate for drilling a hole in a wall or lugging cable about.

[Alucidnation]

Collectingbrass said:

@ everyone else, yes electricity isn't surgery, but that's because you don't have to dress up like a doctor to kill people with it.

[505diff]

Remember folks this is PistonHeads so if you've paid for electrical work (as a business transaction) and found out the installer was a DIY expert then they can be sued and given the death penalty, however if your going to carry out electrical DIY work for someone for money (as a business transaction) but have to result to asking strangers on the internet if your allowed to do so, that's ok as well.

[Collectingbrass]

Muncher said:

jason61c said:

Thats the point isn't it. The busy sparkys I know are happy about not having to spend a week dragging cables through buildings, doing the donkey work. They make more money doing the final connections/inspecting/commissioning. They also keep their hands cleaner

Exactly, it's about paying a premium rate for their skill, which is in the commissioning and testing part. It makes no sense charging the the same premium rate for drilling a hole in a wall or lugging cable about.

They don't charge premium rate for knuckle dragging work, that's what the Electrician's Mate / YTS lad is for. They charge premium rate for circuit design, access to trade / wholesale rates for materials as well as the commissioning and testing part.

[jason61c]

Collectingbrass said:

They don't charge premium rate for knuckle dragging work, that's what the Electrician's Mate / YTS lad is for. They charge premium rate for circuit design, access to trade / wholesale rates for materials as well as the commissioning and testing part.

I understand what you're saying, however just about anyone can get things at the same prices now, long gone are the days of trade only prices. They still charge a standard rate for the donkey work, which is where most can make a saving.