Patios and DPC
Discussion
We are in the middle of getting a new patio and lawn laid. Bloke doing it is a mate of my wife, runs a landscaping company, good reputation, was happy to give him the work.
Arrived yesterday and started excavations, including removal of the slabs off a small partial patio outside our kitchen door, which had a concrete base. My expectation was that he would dig this out completely, as we are replacing with a full width patio across the whole rear of the house. This morning he turned up saying "we'll leave that base in as it's solid" and just put a new sub base round it for the rest". Critically it means that, because of the height of this concrete slab, the new paving stones for the new patio which will adjoin the external walls of the house will breach the building reg of 'must be 15cm below the DPC'.
I discussed with him this morning and he gave me some waffle about leaving a 4in pea shingle french drain between the edge of the patio and the wall of the house which, I quote, "is within building regulations". Alas I was in a rush to leave so didn't discuss it with him as much as I should, in hindsight.
The Building Regs start off as clear, see page Page 29, section 5.5b here: http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF...
This states if the wall is an external wall, the damp proof course should be 150mm above the level of the adjoining ground
Presumably lobbing a gap in there that is just shingle still makes this "adjoining ground" - or does it?
It then goes on to say that 'the requirement can also be met by following the relevant recommendations of clauses 4 and 5 of BS8215:1991 BS8102:1990'
Trouble is: I can't find any (free) info online for these British Standards regulations. Do they cover what he is suggesting, or is he trying to turn me over by trying to save a bit of effort on excavating a proper base, to the potential detriment of my property?
I've told him to down tools until we can agree in the morning, so any helpful advice appreciated.
Arrived yesterday and started excavations, including removal of the slabs off a small partial patio outside our kitchen door, which had a concrete base. My expectation was that he would dig this out completely, as we are replacing with a full width patio across the whole rear of the house. This morning he turned up saying "we'll leave that base in as it's solid" and just put a new sub base round it for the rest". Critically it means that, because of the height of this concrete slab, the new paving stones for the new patio which will adjoin the external walls of the house will breach the building reg of 'must be 15cm below the DPC'.
I discussed with him this morning and he gave me some waffle about leaving a 4in pea shingle french drain between the edge of the patio and the wall of the house which, I quote, "is within building regulations". Alas I was in a rush to leave so didn't discuss it with him as much as I should, in hindsight.
The Building Regs start off as clear, see page Page 29, section 5.5b here: http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF...
This states if the wall is an external wall, the damp proof course should be 150mm above the level of the adjoining ground
Presumably lobbing a gap in there that is just shingle still makes this "adjoining ground" - or does it?
It then goes on to say that 'the requirement can also be met by following the relevant recommendations of clauses 4 and 5 of BS8215:1991 BS8102:1990'
Trouble is: I can't find any (free) info online for these British Standards regulations. Do they cover what he is suggesting, or is he trying to turn me over by trying to save a bit of effort on excavating a proper base, to the potential detriment of my property?
I've told him to down tools until we can agree in the morning, so any helpful advice appreciated.
Edited by PurpleTurtle on Tuesday 28th July 22:43
Edited by PurpleTurtle on Tuesday 28th July 22:44
TA14 said:
Spudler said:
Appologise and let him carry on.
Saying that, your new patio will crack where the concrete base meets the hardcore.
So with that in mind, as well as the levels issue, I'd want the slab removed and the patio right up to the house. It's your house OP... Saying that, your new patio will crack where the concrete base meets the hardcore.
Why he couldn't just do that in the first place? Rhetorical question!
How much past the 150mm has he gone? 10mm or 100mm? Is what he suggested (the pea gravel) in keeping with the design of the patio or will it look out of place?
Quoting bs:7865477547755 and en:5775467545889643 to a guy who has been doing his job right for many years (hence the good reputation and the reason you got him to do the work in the first place) isn't really the best way to approach a situation.
Photos would help here too.
Quoting bs:7865477547755 and en:5775467545889643 to a guy who has been doing his job right for many years (hence the good reputation and the reason you got him to do the work in the first place) isn't really the best way to approach a situation.
Photos would help here too.
He's gone 75mm over, so only leaving 75mm.
The patio to be installed is 6m x 3m across the back of a terraced property. The concrete slab that he didn't want to dig out is effectively a circular area in the middle of that, that the previous patio sat on.
The underlying issue (I think) is that he's quoted the job needing an 8yd skip @ £320, which he managed to fill to the absolute brim on Monday with rubble from other necessary excavations in the garden. I get the feeling he didn't want to ask me to pay for a second skip, so is trying to wing it with leaving this existing slab in situ.
The further complication I realised this moring is that laying a new surface on top of this slab allows for hardly any fall on the new patio; my research says you need 1:60 away from the house, i.e. a drop of 5cm over 3metres. I measured it this morning and he is barely getting 1cm over that width. Not very good IMO.
Anyway, the upshot today is that I am paying for a second skip and the slab is coming out, he is excavating to a proper depth.
I don't really don't mind the extra cost, it's small beer compared to rectifying a bodge job. I just wish he could've been honest with me; my first thought on seeing the brimmed skip without the site fully cleared was "f
k me, that's a load more rubble than I thought there would be". I can't blame him for possibly underestimating the need for another skip, but to then fashion a risky bodge round the Regs because of that has annoyed me.
Regarding the Regs, I shouldn't really have to quote them to him, I expect a professional landscaper to know them, and work to them. That's his job, surely?
I am a reasonably competent DIY'er who could do this myself if I had time, a few minutes research tells me that there is only one regulation on patios and DPC's, and that's the 150mm rule (apart from this numbered BS exception, which is elusive unless you pay for access to those BS documents, hence my question).
The patio to be installed is 6m x 3m across the back of a terraced property. The concrete slab that he didn't want to dig out is effectively a circular area in the middle of that, that the previous patio sat on.
The underlying issue (I think) is that he's quoted the job needing an 8yd skip @ £320, which he managed to fill to the absolute brim on Monday with rubble from other necessary excavations in the garden. I get the feeling he didn't want to ask me to pay for a second skip, so is trying to wing it with leaving this existing slab in situ.
The further complication I realised this moring is that laying a new surface on top of this slab allows for hardly any fall on the new patio; my research says you need 1:60 away from the house, i.e. a drop of 5cm over 3metres. I measured it this morning and he is barely getting 1cm over that width. Not very good IMO.
Anyway, the upshot today is that I am paying for a second skip and the slab is coming out, he is excavating to a proper depth.
I don't really don't mind the extra cost, it's small beer compared to rectifying a bodge job. I just wish he could've been honest with me; my first thought on seeing the brimmed skip without the site fully cleared was "f
k me, that's a load more rubble than I thought there would be". I can't blame him for possibly underestimating the need for another skip, but to then fashion a risky bodge round the Regs because of that has annoyed me. Regarding the Regs, I shouldn't really have to quote them to him, I expect a professional landscaper to know them, and work to them. That's his job, surely?
I am a reasonably competent DIY'er who could do this myself if I had time, a few minutes research tells me that there is only one regulation on patios and DPC's, and that's the 150mm rule (apart from this numbered BS exception, which is elusive unless you pay for access to those BS documents, hence my question).
Edited by PurpleTurtle on Wednesday 29th July 10:06
PurpleTurtle said:
my research says you need 1:60 away from the house, i.e. a drop of 5cm over 3metres. I measured it this morning and he is barely getting 1cm over that width. Not very good IMO.
Anyway, the upshot today is that I am paying for a second skip and the slab is coming out, he is excavating to a proper depth.
Sounds a fair outcome.Anyway, the upshot today is that I am paying for a second skip and the slab is coming out, he is excavating to a proper depth.
For falls 1:200 won't flow at all. Pavements are 1:40 to 1:60 cross fall; 1:80 works OK and depending on the slabs and the accuracy of laying 1:100 can be OK.
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