Am I being mugged? Extra charges from the builder

[WindyMills]

From what you have said it sounds as though the increase in spec occurred somewhere between tender and 1st fix. This means that there was no abortive work/rushing back to amend/etc as usually occurs.

I'm going to presume the 96 hours is 2 sparkys for 6 days, which does seem a lot, but not massively over. Something like travel, buying materials, awkward joists, layout, construction etc can quite easily account for some of this.

I'd bear in mind that the builder has presumably included his overhead and profit in that figure. Also, finding a good sparky can be difficult. I'd ignore the 96 hours, and focus on cost and quality.

[shtu]

OK, just for a laugh I've roughed-out the cable distances for just the first floor sockets with a few assumptions....

• 15 fittings on first floor, all on one ring.

• Single rise and drop from the CU to the roof space.

• Drops to each fitting from the roof space to the fitting. Arguably the fastest neatest way, and cable's cheaper than labour.

• 25cm tails left at first fix.

• 10% slack.

Rise from CU to Loft - 6m
Perimeter run of cable - 20m
Fall from loft to CU - 6m
Tails at CU - 0.5m
10% slack - 3.25m

• Subtotal - 35.75m

Drop from loft to socket - 2m
Rise from socket to loft - 2m
Tails at socket - 0.5m
10% slack - 0.45m
For each of 15 Fittings

• Subtotal - 74.25m

Total - 110m. For one ring.

If the spark has split into several rings - the spark reasonably assuming that someone who wants 30 sockets in their garage might have quite high electrical demands - you can easily reach the sort of numbers quoted.

Now, people can be as picky as they like and shave off a few m here and there (largely by making a shedload of assumptions about the way it's been done, much like I have), but the cable estimates are a) probably not outrageous, and b) trivial when you can buy a drum of 2.5mm twin and earth for £40.


Back to the original question - Am I being mugged?

In my opinion, it doesn't sound like it really.

[Fab32]

Some interesting replies to answer a few points;

The cable I am being charged for is;
200m x 2.5mm twin and earth cable £79.35
250m x 1.5mm twin and earth cable £138.00
100m x 1.0 3core and earth cable £30.93
100m x 6.0 twin and earth £132.25

These have VAT added to them so it's a sizable chunk of the parts bill.

None of the electrical work was retrofit as in no going back and redoing stuff, we changed 'spec' before any electrical work started

I advised you guys wrong it wasn't 28 sockets it's 22 (who knows where I got 28 from)

so the break down of work is

Stairs
6 x spots LED lights
1 x smoke alarm
1 x heat alarm
2 switches

Loft
1 x hanger pendant light
1 x switch
1 x socket

Room above garage 5m x 5m
12 x spot LED lights
11 x sockets
1 x light switch
1 x switch that turns the plug off behind the TV

Garage
12 x spot LED lights
10 x sockets
1 x outside PIR light
1 x switch (its a double at the door that turns the lights on and the PIR light off)
1 x Consumer Unit (£65 + VAT)


So that's 61 individual items they have fitted
at 96 man hours that is just over 90 minutes and item over first and second fix
at 650m of cable it's an average of 10,6m of cable per item, now I know it's not as simple as this but nothing fitted is 10m away from the consumer unit allowing for the cable to be fitted trough the walls

The consumer unit is mounted literally touching the other original, its mounted on the other side of the wall to the electricity metre.

The consumer unit has 6 labelled circuits;
Stair lights
games room lights
garage lights
garage sockets
sockets ring 1
sockets ring 2

Total parts bill

£808.55 + VAT
Labour Electrician £1430 + VAT
Labour Electricians Mate £372 + VAT

Total bill £2.610.55
VAT £522.11
Total £3132.66

+ We have paid £900 for the 30 spot lights

Opinions still welcome, the plan is to e-mail the builder, some of our communication has been by e-mail so it won't be odd him getting and e-mail from us, saying we are a little concerned about the bill and think they may have over estimated a few things and ask him to go back and revise it with them and see what response we get.

[Mousem40]

Your bill includes the cables?
I'm now of the opinion that your total bill is cheap.
In London sparkies charge say £30-70 a point (a point being any socket/light switch etc) - no materials. Forget hours worked for the moment (£ per point ultimately converts into hours of work they assume needs to be done, it's all relative and I'm giving you other relative quotes based on number of points which is the norm). £50 being the average retail price (plus VAT/Tax)

Taking out the materials element of your job, means you're paying £35 a point all in!
That is a really decent price and I bet you'll have some useless (to you) half used reels of 3-core lying around too.

Stop running around the house with a tape measure working it all out, you haven't been ripped off on the labour element. He may have over ordered slightly on the cables so ask for £50-100 off but I can't see how you can know either way.

Edited by Mousem40 on Thursday 27th August 23:36

Edited by Mousem40 on Thursday 27th August 23:40

[Fab32]

Mousem40 said:

Your bill includes the cables?
I'm now of the opinion that your total bill is cheap.
In London sparkies charge say £30-70 a point (a point being any socket/light switch etc) - no materials. Forget hours worked for the moment (£ per point ultimately converts into hours of work they assume needs to be done, it's all relative and I'm giving you other relative quotes based on number of points which is the norm). £50 being the average retail price (plus VAT/Tax)

Taking out the materials element of your job, means you're paying £35 a point all in!
That is a really decent price and I bet you'll have some useless (to you) half used reels of 3-core lying around too.

Stop running around the house with a tape measure working it all out, you haven't been ripped off on the labour element. He may have over ordered slightly on the cables so ask for £50-100 off but I can't see how you can know either way.

Edited by Mousem40 on Thursday 27th August 23:36

Edited by Mousem40 on Thursday 27th August 23:40

So just so I am clear, Mr Smith wants his formerly unlit garage bathed in light.

If he goes for a giant disco ball in the middle he pays for;

Consumer unit £60 + install £50
Disco ball £50 + install £50
Switch £10 + install £50

30m of wire £30

So total £300 + VAT

however if he wants 12 spotlights;

Consumer unit £60 + install £50
Spot lights x 12 £360 + install x12 £600
Switch £10 + install £50

140m of wire £140

Total £1270 + VAT?

[Mousem40]

Fab32 said:

So just so I am clear, Mr Smith wants his formerly unlit garage bathed in light.

If he goes for a giant disco ball in the middle he pays for;

Consumer unit £60 + install £50
Disco ball £50 + install £50
Switch £10 + install £50

30m of wire £30

So total £300 + VAT

however if he wants 12 spotlights;

Consumer unit £60 + install £50
Spot lights x 12 £360 + install x12 £600
Switch £10 + install £50

140m of wire £140

Total £1270 + VAT?

Consumer units are not usually charged as a point, they are more expensive.
Notwithstanding that, yes your calculations are correct. (I'm a property developer, I've employed tens of electricians over the past 12 years, and that's how it works, I'm not having a go, I'm giving you the benefit of experience)


When I get a quote it pretty much goes like this:

How much do you charge a point?
Ok go ahead. At the end of the job we'll count the points and I'll pay you accordingly.

Edited by Mousem40 on Friday 28th August 01:50

[blindswelledrat]

Actually I think it is cheap now.
I had originally thought the bill was £4200 plus the lights he had bought. Hadn't read it properly.
If the total bill is £3200 including VAT then it sounds very cheap to me for all the electrical work and cabling.
No idea if that much cable is reasonable but the whole thing is cheap compared with work I got done.

I think the big problem has been with the builders original estimate being far too low. The difference between £1000 and £3200 is more than treble for what I would guess doesn't amount to treble the work?

I would do exactly what you are doing and pay him whatever he asked for after your email - even if it is the full amount (assuming you like him)

[Cyberprog]

Can you identify what the original £1200 quote was for, so you can therefore put a price to each step somewhat more accurately. Then extrapolate with the final quantities.

I also have to say, the £30 per light you've mentioned seems rather high - I've used FG LED 3's in my place and they have been great, and around the £15 ea mark, rather than the £30 ea mark you've gone for...

[paulrockliffe]

As a loose comparison, our full rewire was about the same price as your extra work. Was part of a renovation project, so floors were up, but the job involved:

New CU, 14 lights, 60 sockets, shower cable, wiring to the loft for future conversion including shower, tieing in the conservatory, 6 external lights, two motion sensors. Garage - new CU, 2 lights, 6 sockets. Easy job, but a lot of chasing into very solid brick walls.

I supplied all the hardware apart from back boxes and cable.

What you've described sounds nowhere near as much work as I had done, so I can't see how it's costing so much.

[surveyor]

A top tip for a later date (too late for OP unfortunately), is to include in any tender

Extras per light switch, per double switched socket, and if appropriate per double network point.

Saves this type of scenario.

[hairyben]

netherfield said:

End of the day you should have asked for a quote,

^This, ^this, ^this, and did I mention ^this.

This crops up a lot. and the no.1 cause is builders being absolute swines, ringing you (me, the spark) on say a wednesday afternoon with "oh that job I mentioned is ready when can you do it?

"got some time in 2-3 weeks"

"thats no good to me the spreads here monday"

"well I haven't evan seen it or priced it up yet"

"Don't worry that won't be a problem but you have to get over here"


So with builder whinnnying and tantruming you (against better judgement of "no I can't soz") try your best to fit it all in, everything ends up taking twice as long because you're playing catch-up, you're trying to fit stuff in and running around, juggling commitments and grabbing hours here-and-there, turning up without the right stuff to do the job because it's changing as you go and the builder wants x more than the planned y today. Then you pop an invoice in that doesn't really do yourself justice were every bit of hassle and back-and-forth logged, then the thanks you get is to have it challenged because it's more than what you could have done the job for if you'd have completed it properly in a well planned/relaxed manner. I'm not saying that was what happened here but it's often the case; one of the best pieces of advice to anyone having building work done would be get it priced FIRST. And those extra bits you keep thinking of, get them priced too, even if it means holding the job up and annoys people.


As for a lot of the speculation about cable usage you'd be surprised how it gets eaten up with modern style builds- I've just used 800+m on a kitchen, 450m of it 1mm (lighting), albeit a fairly large kitchen heh. And I still wonder where it all goes, even though I fitted every yard of it and do this all the time.

[Fab32]

As stated I have e-mailed the builder and I'm awaiting a response, can anybody advise what the 6mm cable will have been used for?

[eliot]

Still would like to know where 100m of 6mm t&e was used.

[Neil - YVM]

Fab32 said:

As stated I have e-mailed the builder and I'm awaiting a response, can anybody advise what the 6mm cable will have been used for?

6mm cable would usually be used where there is a specific high load, up to 40 amps, 9.5kw.
Such as an electric shower, ceramic / induction hob, maybe an immersion heater, or a double oven?
As I have stated previously, from your description there is no requirement for 6mm cable.

[505diff]

I don't think you have paid over the odds, the 6mm cable is a bit of an odd one but overall that price is reasonable, to me like others have said, the builder has under estimated the costs, you have asked for extras, the total amount of work done seems reasonable for the cost. Ask about the 6mm as it may be an error that the 6mm was booked on the same order as your materials but was for another job, and just got added to the bill as a genuine mistake. If you paid for a quantity surveyor I'm sure the outcome would be you have been charged a reasonable amount.

[PWE]

hairyben said:

netherfield said:

End of the day you should have asked for a quote,

^This, ^this, ^this, and did I mention ^this.

This crops up a lot. and the no.1 cause is builders being absolute swines, ringing you (me, the spark) on say a wednesday afternoon with "oh that job I mentioned is ready when can you do it?

"got some time in 2-3 weeks"

"thats no good to me the spreads here monday"

"well I haven't evan seen it or priced it up yet"

"Don't worry that won't be a problem but you have to get over here"


So with builder whinnnying and tantruming you (against better judgement of "no I can't soz") try your best to fit it all in, everything ends up taking twice as long because you're playing catch-up, you're trying to fit stuff in and running around, juggling commitments and grabbing hours here-and-there, turning up without the right stuff to do the job because it's changing as you go and the builder wants x more than the planned y today. Then you pop an invoice in that doesn't really do yourself justice were every bit of hassle and back-and-forth logged, then the thanks you get is to have it challenged because it's more than what you could have done the job for if you'd have completed it properly in a well planned/relaxed manner. I'm not saying that was what happened here but it's often the case; one of the best pieces of advice to anyone having building work done would be get it priced FIRST. And those extra bits you keep thinking of, get them priced too, even if it means holding the job up and annoys people.


As for a lot of the speculation about cable usage you'd be surprised how it gets eaten up with modern style builds- I've just used 800+m on a kitchen, 450m of it 1mm (lighting), albeit a fairly large kitchen heh. And I still wonder where it all goes, even though I fitted every yard of it and do this all the time.

I too get the above 9 times out of 10.

Plus a few of the builders often estimate the electricians/plumbing costs before getting actual quotes from us. Then can't understand why the clients kick off when they get a 6k plus bill for rewires when they've quoted half that.

O/P My opinion is that the biggest mistake here was the initial estimate not the final bill. What you have been charged is pretty standard,
I often quote £50/60 per point plus materials. I know sparks that do it for less but I believe you get what you pay for usually.

I would take into account that wear and tear for hole saws/multitool blades/red plugs/ 1" washers costings etc which are used and therefore should be billed for aren't usually listed but you will be paying for them somewhere.

just my 10p's worth

[Fab32]

• *Update***

So we paid the builder his final bill which included the original price quote for the electrical work and said we were holding back the payment for the final electrical bill while we queried a few things.

I sent the builder a nice e-mail expressing my concern at the high amount of the bill and said I thought I had spotted a few things that didn't seem right and said I would have expected him to have vetted the bill before passing it on.

All the builder did was forward the e-mail on directly to the electrician and then forward his reply directly back to me. I am disappointed as it feels like he is trying to distance himself from the issue.

The response from the electrician is in my opinion unprofessional, they have acknowledged that the 6mm cable was added to the invoice in error and was not something that was used on the job and also removed 2 x smoke detectors that were added to the bill again in error.

There was no apology for the 'mistake' on the bill just a reduction in the amount and no acknowledgement on any of the other queries just a statement about the bill being fair. Then some waffle about them having to stop all their work to come and do this as we put pressure on them (first we knew they were coming was when the builder said the electricians will be here on x day they arrived on worked and left). Then some other waffle about the amount of lights being excessive. Of course we were led by the them on the amount needed in the room.

So we have a £200 reduction in the bill

[Too Late]

Fab32 said:

***Update***

So we paid the builder his final bill which included the original price quote for the electrical work and said we were holding back the payment for the final electrical bill while we queried a few things.

I sent the builder a nice e-mail expressing my concern at the high amount of the bill and said I thought I had spotted a few things that didn't seem right and said I would have expected him to have vetted the bill before passing it on.

All the builder did was forward the e-mail on directly to the electrician and then forward his reply directly back to me. I am disappointed as it feels like he is trying to distance himself from the issue.

The response from the electrician is in my opinion unprofessional, they have acknowledged that the 6mm cable was added to the invoice in error and was not something that was used on the job and also removed 2 x smoke detectors that were added to the bill again in error.

There was no apology for the 'mistake' on the bill just a reduction in the amount and no acknowledgement on any of the other queries just a statement about the bill being fair. Then some waffle about them having to stop all their work to come and do this as we put pressure on them (first we knew they were coming was when the builder said the electricians will be here on x day they arrived on worked and left). Then some other waffle about the amount of lights being excessive. Of course we were led by the them on the amount needed in the room.

So we have a £200 reduction in the bill

2 mistakes on an invoice which had you not questioned, you would have paid.

So what is the final payment to the electrician?

What about a 15% reduction of the overall owed to them

[TA14]

I think that this falls into the life's too short category. We're just back where you were on page 1. Had you not said that you would pay everything above the £1,200 you'd be in a much stronger position and would be able to say something on the lines of "you quoted £1,200 and since that I supplied some items bringing that down to say £975 and you haven't done four times the work initially quoted."

On a point of order you owe the builder. Don't get dragged into negotiating with subbies.

[JustinP1]

Here's a legal solution to this:

Your contract is with the builder. Not the electrician. You don't really need to speak to the electrician, although what is beneficial is that they've made a mistake on their bill.

If this *were* to be put before a third party, such as a court, the fact that they've tried to include on an invoice things that were clearly not used will be a very heavy dent to their credibility.

In fact, after this, I wouldn't trust any of the invoice at all. Google 'Van Halen brown M&Ms'.

To solve this from a legal perspective, you agreed to pay £1200 in your quote to the builder for the agreed works. You then agreed to pay the direct rate above that for the additional works.

If it were me, I would split their invoice accordingly. All the extra you need to pay for is the additional works. How much of the invoice is that?

The reason I say this is that you may very well find that the builder has quotes £1200 for the original works, and the electrician has charged £2400 for them. If that's the case then that £1200 difference is the builder's problem, not yours.

Edited by JustinP1 on Thursday 17th September 08:49