House re-wire - what is the limit of DIY?
Discussion
Greetings! Loaded question, I know.
Scenario - looking at upsizing, we want a project. We've found one, and electrics will need some attention. There will also be some internal layout changes which will involve probably complete reconfig . of the loops and consumer units - rear extension and new kitchen + workshop and utility area. Upstairs there are some 15A 3-pin sockets that will obviously be deleted and replaced, but less in the way of major loop changes - probably a few new CUs added.
I know enough to know that even if I am competent, I am not considered competent by buildings control from a part P point of view, and I also know that I won't fare well trying to get a third party to sign off my work. So how far can I go?
Can I cut back the plaster, notch floorboards, run conduit and add the CU back boxes?
Can I run the cables, but leave unconnected?
Can I install (i.e. physically locate, not connect) light fittings?
What can I definitely not do?
I did consult the internet, I found a lot of firms saying don't touch it and call an electrician and a few more helpful pages where minor changes are concerned, but nothing helpful about major jobs like this. Some said I could replace like for like, some said I could add new sockets to an existing circuit, others said if I wanted to replace a plastic light switch with chrome, I'd need an electrician - which seems daft.
Scenario - looking at upsizing, we want a project. We've found one, and electrics will need some attention. There will also be some internal layout changes which will involve probably complete reconfig . of the loops and consumer units - rear extension and new kitchen + workshop and utility area. Upstairs there are some 15A 3-pin sockets that will obviously be deleted and replaced, but less in the way of major loop changes - probably a few new CUs added.
I know enough to know that even if I am competent, I am not considered competent by buildings control from a part P point of view, and I also know that I won't fare well trying to get a third party to sign off my work. So how far can I go?
Can I cut back the plaster, notch floorboards, run conduit and add the CU back boxes?
Can I run the cables, but leave unconnected?
Can I install (i.e. physically locate, not connect) light fittings?
What can I definitely not do?
I did consult the internet, I found a lot of firms saying don't touch it and call an electrician and a few more helpful pages where minor changes are concerned, but nothing helpful about major jobs like this. Some said I could replace like for like, some said I could add new sockets to an existing circuit, others said if I wanted to replace a plastic light switch with chrome, I'd need an electrician - which seems daft.
Assuming you follow the regs for where the cables can run, sizes and so on there isn't any real reason you can't chase the cables in, fix the back boxes and all the rest of the prep work prior to the cable trimming & connection. Everything you mentioned is fine if it can be seen and inspected. The problem is you need someone to finish the job off and sign it off and it depends on what work they'd be happy to let you do yourself before they complete it.
I don't think most electricians really want to get involved in the basic heavy work (like chasing cables or screwing boxes to walls) but that doesn't mean they'd let you take the work off them if you know what I mean.
I think you'd have to talk it over with whoever you get as a contractor.
In theory you could do everything and get it signed off by a third party but I've yet to find that work in practice as the concept just doesn't seem possible.
My personal experience has been that I can do a better job of most of this stuff than a lot of people who get paid to do it professionally full time. Being able to self-cert Part P seems to have very little to do with being competent; I can't self-cert because the system just isn't set up to be able to get in a position to do so as an individual even though I've done the qualifications & would be considered 'competent'. Whereas I've had to get a proper 'professional' firm to rip out and redo work because it wasn't actually compliant; it took a bit of arguing, pointing out the text in the 17th Ed. regs and then walking them through the NICEIC quick guides to get them to accept that running cables as they had wasn't even vaguely compliant. (As in hidden subsurface, unprotected, run diagonally, outside a safe zone 'what's a safe zone?'!!) But that would have sailed through Part P as they could do the paperwork...
So my personal preference is to make sure everything goes where I want it to by at least cutting in the sockets and channels even if someone else has to actually hook it up.
I don't think most electricians really want to get involved in the basic heavy work (like chasing cables or screwing boxes to walls) but that doesn't mean they'd let you take the work off them if you know what I mean.
I think you'd have to talk it over with whoever you get as a contractor.
In theory you could do everything and get it signed off by a third party but I've yet to find that work in practice as the concept just doesn't seem possible.
My personal experience has been that I can do a better job of most of this stuff than a lot of people who get paid to do it professionally full time. Being able to self-cert Part P seems to have very little to do with being competent; I can't self-cert because the system just isn't set up to be able to get in a position to do so as an individual even though I've done the qualifications & would be considered 'competent'. Whereas I've had to get a proper 'professional' firm to rip out and redo work because it wasn't actually compliant; it took a bit of arguing, pointing out the text in the 17th Ed. regs and then walking them through the NICEIC quick guides to get them to accept that running cables as they had wasn't even vaguely compliant. (As in hidden subsurface, unprotected, run diagonally, outside a safe zone 'what's a safe zone?'!!) But that would have sailed through Part P as they could do the paperwork...
So my personal preference is to make sure everything goes where I want it to by at least cutting in the sockets and channels even if someone else has to actually hook it up.
Certification by a building control body
3.8 If an installer is not a registered competent person and has not appointed a registered third-party certifier, then before work begins the installer must notify a building control body.
3.9 The building control body will determine the extent of the inspection and testing needed for it to establish that the work is safe, based on the nature of the electrical work and the competence of the installer. The building control body may choose to carry out any necessary inspection and testing itself or it may contract a specialist (electrical contractor or electrician) to carry out some or all of the work and furnish it with an electrical installation condition report.
3.8 If an installer is not a registered competent person and has not appointed a registered third-party certifier, then before work begins the installer must notify a building control body.
3.9 The building control body will determine the extent of the inspection and testing needed for it to establish that the work is safe, based on the nature of the electrical work and the competence of the installer. The building control body may choose to carry out any necessary inspection and testing itself or it may contract a specialist (electrical contractor or electrician) to carry out some or all of the work and furnish it with an electrical installation condition report.
p1esk said:
Could I use this thread to ask if, when a house is being rewired, one would normally renew all the sockets, switches and light fittings - ceiling roses etc. - or just those that are faulty in some way?
I'd be unusual to retain them and I don't think any professional contractor would do this unless requested, it's not like they're expensive and do wear out.worsy said:
Could you not fit it all and then get a condition report to satisfy BC?
What do you mean by a condition report ? Do you mean an electrical installation certificate or a periodic report? These two are not the same things and could cause problems later on . Also , if you were an electrician would you be happy to sign off on a job that you have had no input into just so someone can cut their own costs. OP , talk to a sparkle first , most will be happy to just terminate but they should want to be absolutely sure what you have done , they will want to direct you to do things certain way and to specify what materials and cable sizes you use. There is no problem with you cutting chases etc , running cables is allowed but the inspector is supposed to have knowledge of how they have been installed. As long as you communicate so that you are aware of permitted and zones , correct sizes and circuit design and things are readily checkable and you proceed at an agreed schedule things should be fine. Problems I've seen in the past are people doing things like too many spurs , hidden joint boxes and not being aware of damaging cables. Also spurring things like water heaters or lights off socket circuits. The key thing is to communicate and take direction - don't just wire it , plaster every thing up , put floorboards down and then find an electrician. as for OP like dave says local building control will have a process that permits you to do near enough all of it. Often this involves an inspection before wires are covered and your work tested by someone qualified but the specifics vary by authority so speak to yours.
As an electrician, while it seems simple "in theory" having a client run all the wires/boxes etc and just checking runs and doing a final fit/connect/test it never works out that way in practice, as you can't budget for the errors made by the clients learning curve. There's an awful lot of knowledge we just take for granted, although that said a lot of electrical contractor outfits provide a job little better than amateur these days- 1 guy who's been to college and got his "sertiffkit" overseeing a troupe of cheap thick labourers around seems to be the norm. I was in a house being refurbed on friday watching them go about their work and it made me want to cry just watching them.
As an electrician, while it seems simple "in theory" having a client run all the wires/boxes etc and just checking runs and doing a final fit/connect/test it never works out that way in practice, as you can't budget for the errors made by the clients learning curve. There's an awful lot of knowledge we just take for granted, although that said a lot of electrical contractor outfits provide a job little better than amateur these days- 1 guy who's been to college and got his "sertiffkit" overseeing a troupe of cheap thick labourers around seems to be the norm. I was in a house being refurbed on friday watching them go about their work and it made me want to cry just watching them.
This is what I worry about with contractors. Having helped the old man (electronics & software engineer) wire and plumb various things in the family home I have a pretty good idea what not to do. I've now digested Part P and associated annexes and think if I involve building control from the outset and make sure they can examine each room or circuit before laying floors etc, we should be good.
Having said the house in question now has offers at 20k north of ours, so its very unlikely we'll get it.
Having said the house in question now has offers at 20k north of ours, so its very unlikely we'll get it.
Could end up more hassle than worth.... rewiring is what we do.... www.jrcrewiring.co.uk. sorry for plug (although my site as loads of useful info for you)
Yes you probably could do it yourself, it will likely take you weeks, it takes us 1-1.5 days for 3 bed semis, and its unlikely you will find any sparks willing to sign off your work.
Yes you probably could do it yourself, it will likely take you weeks, it takes us 1-1.5 days for 3 bed semis, and its unlikely you will find any sparks willing to sign off your work.
We've basically rewired our new house, chased in the wires, run new cables where necessary and have an electrician come in and do the final connecting up. He seems happy to sign it off after he's tested it all with his magic box of tricks. Downstairs is done, upstairs will hopefully be finished this week. The connecting up includes the electrician doing the final connecting on the electric underfloor heating which we are installing throughout the house too.
Gassing Station | Homes, Gardens and DIY | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff