Planning enforcement officer visit

[blindspot]

If a property is occupied by more than one household, and occupants share facilities (cooking, bathrooms or toilets) then it is an HMO.

An HMO must be licensed if it comprises 3 or more stories, is occupied by 5 or more persons, and by more than one household.

or is in an area with additional licensing.

If you have an HMO, you must manage it in accordance with the management of houses in multiple occupation (England) regs. Failure to do so is a criminal offence.

Whether occupiers are tenants or lodgers doesn't make a difference to the HMO test (assuming it is main residence, and at least one person paying rent).

[Andy M]

Is there any update on the officers visit?

[BGARK]

Andy M said:

Is there any update on the officers visit?

Yes, and it is extremely frustrating.

We removed some kitchen storage cupboards and worktop from a couple of the (living)rooms. Now when I say rooms these are big rooms, with a separate bedroom and en-suite in each.

He came out to inspect, and complained because we left 2 wall cabinets still up. So the next step is to remove those, re-decorate and invite him back again.

These people are bureaucrats with zero compassion or common sense. By removing storage cupboards it now means people need to store their belongings in cardboard boxes on the floor, but hey apparently that is fine!

He was also interested in how many people are living there, which is currently 5. However its a very large 7 bedroom house and we could possibly apply for a HMO to suit 6 people. Go figure..

[Burgmeister]

The OP sounds like a prime example of why landlords get bad press. If you're going to be a landlord then learn the rules and regulations and don't ask the basics on a motoring website.

Join the NLA or the RLA and get on some training courses.

[Charlie1986]

Burgmeister said:

The OP sounds like a prime example of why landlords get bad press. If you're going to be a landlord then learn the rules and regulations and don't ask the basics on a motoring website.

Join the NLA or the RLA and get on some training courses.

Yep I agree with this, If you play the game learn the rules

[BGARK]

Charlie1986 said:

Burgmeister said:

The OP sounds like a prime example of why landlords get bad press. If you're going to be a landlord then learn the rules and regulations and don't ask the basics on a motoring website.

Join the NLA or the RLA and get on some training courses.

Yep I agree with this, If you play the game learn the rules

This sort of thing really annoys me, The house used to be my family home. The interior layout etc has not changed for almost 15 years. I move out and rent it, I put myself out to make sure all of the fixture and fittings are of the highest standard, the tenants don't want to leave because its such a beautiful place, and I don't charge a lot.

But I am bad guy apparently?

[Andy M]

I doubt you're a bad guy but, like many reluctant/inexperienced landlords, it appears you've not taken the steps to keep yourself updated with the requirements of being a landlord.

In the same way that anybody with a car shouldn't feel that they can earn a bit on the side by becoming a part-time taxi driver, landlords are now required to be professional in the way they go about their business.

It's one to take on the chin, learn the lessons (which aren't difficult or expensive) and to move on.

A few landlord stories hitting the press in the last week or so:

http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/news/record-fine-for...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34571608

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/oct/22/lan...

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news...

http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/news/university-lect...

Edited by Andy M on Friday 23 October 10:55

[TA14]

BGARK said:

But I am bad guy apparently?

You do come across that way. From this post:

BGARK said:

We removed some kitchen storage cupboards and worktop from a couple of the (living)rooms. Now when I say rooms these are big rooms, with a separate bedroom and en-suite in each.

He came out to inspect, and complained because we left 2 wall cabinets still up. So the next step is to remove those, re-decorate and invite him back again.

These people are bureaucrats with zero compassion or common sense. By removing storage cupboards it now means people need to store their belongings in cardboard boxes on the floor, but hey apparently that is fine!

it does sound like you're removing anything which could be regarded as a shared cooking facility in order to avoid the building being classed as a HMO and you'd rather have tenants keep food in cardboard boxes rather than have the house classed as an HMO. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa... but I could well have hold of the wrong end of the stick here.

[Charlie1986]

BGARK said:

This sort of thing really annoys me, The house used to be my family home. The interior layout etc has not changed for almost 15 years. I move out and rent it, I put myself out to make sure all of the fixture and fittings are of the highest standard, the tenants don't want to leave because its such a beautiful place, and I don't charge a lot.

But I am bad guy apparently?

im not saying your a bad guy, Just saying you need to read up on the rules so your protected in future, If you had done this would you be where you are now?

[shakotan]

So each bedroom has been made into a bedsit by installing an en-suite and kitchen facilities.

IIRC there has to be a minimum of two closable doors between a WC and food preparation/cooking area by Law.

[lost in espace]

shakotan said:

So each bedroom has been made into a bedsit by installing an en-suite and kitchen facilities.

IIRC there has to be a minimum of two closable doors between a WC and food preparation/cooking area by Law.

I don't think that any longer is a requirement.

[Little Lofty]

The two door rule went out years ago when it became a requirement for every new home to have a downstairs loo, an extractor fan is now acceptable.

[Burgmeister]

BGARK said:

This sort of thing really annoys me, The house used to be my family home. The interior layout etc has not changed for almost 15 years. I move out and rent it, I put myself out to make sure all of the fixture and fittings are of the highest standard, the tenants don't want to leave because its such a beautiful place, and I don't charge a lot.

But I am bad guy apparently?

It doesn't matter whether you're a bad guy or not. The law is the law and if you're putting tenant safety at risk by choosing to be ignorant of the rules then the book should be thrown at you.

[BGARK]

Burgmeister said:

you're putting tenant safety at risk.

Hang on a second, we are discussing planning law and bureaucracy, not safety concerns. What makes you think that the property is not safe?

All internal doors are fire doors, even the ones that didn't need to be! There are wired smoke and CO detectors, all gas safety checks and certification has been signed off and so on.......

[BGARK]

shakotan said:

So each bedroom has been made into a bedsit by installing an en-suite and kitchen facilities.

No. Imagine 3 large rooms next to each other. One is the bathroom, next is the bedroom, next is a living room with a small kitchenette. It only has a sink, and people plug in their own hob / microwave for basic meals. The main kitchen still has the oven and other facilities.

Multiply the above by 4 in one house.

Plus it has an annex..

[BGARK]

TA14 said:

it does sound like you're removing anything which could be regarded as a shared cooking facility in order to avoid the building being classed as a HMO and you'd rather have tenants keep food in cardboard boxes rather than have the house classed as an HMO. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa... but I could well have hold of the wrong end of the stick here.

Nope, I don't want to move a single thing. Its the enforcement officer that has told me to remove items, and I would much prefer this was classed as a HMO.

I am trying my best to give the tenants alternate space and juggle stuff around so at least they are not uncomfortable until we know exactly where this ends up?

[13m]

BGARK said:

TA14 said:

it does sound like you're removing anything which could be regarded as a shared cooking facility in order to avoid the building being classed as a HMO and you'd rather have tenants keep food in cardboard boxes rather than have the house classed as an HMO. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa... but I could well have hold of the wrong end of the stick here.

Nope, I don't want to move a single thing. Its the enforcement officer that has told me to remove items, and I would much prefer this was classed as a HMO.

I am trying my best to give the tenants alternate space and juggle stuff around so at least they are not uncomfortable until we know exactly where this ends up?

To clarify a few things:

How long ago did you convert the property to bedsits?

How many storeys is the building?

Where is the property (which town)

How many tenancy agreements are there?

I'm not clear whether you've removed the communal kitchen facilities or those in the "units". Can you clarify?

[BGARK]

13m said:

I'm not clear whether you've removed the communal kitchen facilities or those in the "units". Can you clarify?

Only the ones in the "units" the main kitchen still remains untouched.

Been like this for 15+ years.

[13m]

BGARK said:

Only the ones in the "units" the main kitchen still remains untouched.

Been like this for 15+ years.

OK so it is past the point of planning enforcement. So you didn't in all probability need to do anything.

With shared kitchen, if you're renting the units on separate tenancies, it's an HMO. If it's 3 storeys or more it's mandatorily licensable. As flats, and that sounds like what you had, it's a S.257 HMO unless you met building regs. If your local authority hasn't introduced additional licencing you would not have needed a licence. If they have, you would have if the conversion didn't comply with building regs.

It's a complicated subject, but that's the bones of it if I've understood you correctly.

[BGARK]

O/T but I have a tenant that today wants to give TWO days notice for leaving the property, are we entitled to hold any of the deposit back with such short notice?

If the shoe was on the other foot there would be uproar!