2016 Lawn thread
Discussion
Rib said:
How have I missed this thread for this long! I run a GreenThumb franchise (spawn of Satan to some of you I'm sure!) but happy to help where I can for any of you.
That's pretty cool. How do you find it?I've just had Greensleeves (not sure how much of a competitor they are) out for a first greening treatment. 4x a year plus moss control in winter.
Rib said:
How have I missed this thread for this long! I run a GreenThumb franchise (spawn of Satan to some of you I'm sure!) but happy to help where I can for any of you.
I use Greenthumb at present, it costs me £85/visit for 4 visits per year. I'm finding that I'm spot treating weeds myself between visits (I carry a Weedol spray when I'm cutting the grass and give them a squirt in passing), and always arrange for my own scarifying in the Autumn, so I'm thinking of going it alone next year. Do Greenthumb offer anything that is difficult to do yourself?I Enjoy it to be honest on the whole, the stuff works and it pretty reasonable cost for most people so customers are generally happy, and those that arnt are often the ones who dont car for their lawn and you perhaps dont always want as a customer. Been doing it 10 years now so not often there's something I haven't come across, including black layer which is just vile!
to get a nice lawn though with us is always a partnership, cut a lawn badly and it will still be rubbish no matter what feeds you put down.
Main things:
1st off, obviously is cutting, for a house hold lawn I'd always recommend to leave at least an inch after cutting, the best lawns we have are the ones left that big longer. Frequency though makes the real difference, the more often you cut, generally the thicker and healthier it will grow as you providing as little stress on the lawn as possible.
during these hot periods the extra length is what makes the difference, it should always look green after cutting, if you end up with brown bits afterwards, your cutting too short. I'd generally recommend a rotary mower as well, I'm sure there are some on here that have a nice lawn with a cylinder, but again for an average household lawn, with lumps and bumps, fescues, rye and field rye, rotary mowers have easier height adjustment, need less maintenance and still provide a great cut, get one with a roller on the back and you will still get great stripes if thats what your after. For the cost I'd just replace the blade each year as most are pretty cheap.
personally I really despise most of the weed and feeds out there, just really cheaply made awful stuff. you can still get a nice lawn treating yourself, its just getting the right product, right time and applied properly. Certainly we make it look easy, but when you have the right tools and treating 20+ lawns a day you get pretty well practiced! I'm guessing by your treatment cost its quite a large lawn? in which case you would need a half decent broadcast spreader and a quality fertilizer (NOT feed and weed).
generally in my humble opinion, the weed and feeds we do are good value, things like Scarification etc is mainly about labour so you can actually save quite abit doing that yourself. What you could look at doing is skipping one of the summer treatments or a couple of them and have it aerated, thats one of the most important things in my eyes
to get a nice lawn though with us is always a partnership, cut a lawn badly and it will still be rubbish no matter what feeds you put down.
Main things:
1st off, obviously is cutting, for a house hold lawn I'd always recommend to leave at least an inch after cutting, the best lawns we have are the ones left that big longer. Frequency though makes the real difference, the more often you cut, generally the thicker and healthier it will grow as you providing as little stress on the lawn as possible.
during these hot periods the extra length is what makes the difference, it should always look green after cutting, if you end up with brown bits afterwards, your cutting too short. I'd generally recommend a rotary mower as well, I'm sure there are some on here that have a nice lawn with a cylinder, but again for an average household lawn, with lumps and bumps, fescues, rye and field rye, rotary mowers have easier height adjustment, need less maintenance and still provide a great cut, get one with a roller on the back and you will still get great stripes if thats what your after. For the cost I'd just replace the blade each year as most are pretty cheap.
personally I really despise most of the weed and feeds out there, just really cheaply made awful stuff. you can still get a nice lawn treating yourself, its just getting the right product, right time and applied properly. Certainly we make it look easy, but when you have the right tools and treating 20+ lawns a day you get pretty well practiced! I'm guessing by your treatment cost its quite a large lawn? in which case you would need a half decent broadcast spreader and a quality fertilizer (NOT feed and weed).
generally in my humble opinion, the weed and feeds we do are good value, things like Scarification etc is mainly about labour so you can actually save quite abit doing that yourself. What you could look at doing is skipping one of the summer treatments or a couple of them and have it aerated, thats one of the most important things in my eyes
iphonedyou said:
Rib said:
How have I missed this thread for this long! I run a GreenThumb franchise (spawn of Satan to some of you I'm sure!) but happy to help where I can for any of you.
That's pretty cool. How do you find it?I've just had Greensleeves (not sure how much of a competitor they are) out for a first greening treatment. 4x a year plus moss control in winter.
is that 4 treatments or 5 then over the year?
Hi, starting to get the lawn looking reasonable but I have a few patches of thicker bladed grass. I over seeded these patches with fine type grass and to some extent it has helped, but how do I get rid completely?[url]
This shows the patch at the bottom right hand side
|http://thumbsnap.com/7p0nMWre[/url]
This shows the thick blades with some thin amongst it.
This is how the rest of the lawn is
This shows the patch at the bottom right hand side
|http://thumbsnap.com/7p0nMWre[/url]This shows the thick blades with some thin amongst it.
This is how the rest of the lawn is
Edited by RevsPerMinute on Wednesday 20th July 20:03
RevsPerMinute said:
Hi, starting to get the lawn looking reasonable but I have a few patches of thicker bladed grass. I over seeded these patches with fine type grass and to some extent it has helped, but how do I get rid completely?
unfortunately its something you will generally be constantly battling with, only sure fire way is to dig it up and re-seed, however there are a few useful tips on here for trying to keep it under control:https://www.rhs.org.uk/advice/profile?PID=514
Rib, I've got Yorkshire fog starting to take hold in places, it seems to becoming other less looked after gardens, so killing it and reseeding will be an ongoing task. I've seen this stuff, https://www.pitchcare.com/shop/professional-select... is it something Green Thumb would use as a spot treatment, as it's a fair cost but would take about 20 years to use up on my lawn!
Rib said:
iphonedyou said:
Rib said:
How have I missed this thread for this long! I run a GreenThumb franchise (spawn of Satan to some of you I'm sure!) but happy to help where I can for any of you.
That's pretty cool. How do you find it?I've just had Greensleeves (not sure how much of a competitor they are) out for a first greening treatment. 4x a year plus moss control in winter.
is that 4 treatments or 5 then over the year?
They made good progress initially abut after a year or so we got no improvement and our lawn was just average. Decided to go it alone this year but left it a bit late and after spending about £70 on Amazon and the law smith after advice on here suggesting ferrous sulphate, seed and fertiliser I have a lawn far far superior to what they achieved. Should be able to improve it further when I get my Autumn work done.
Big thanks to all those on here who have helped me.
RevsPerMinute said:
Hi, starting to get the lawn looking reasonable but I have a few patches of thicker bladed grass. I over seeded these patches with fine type grass and to some extent it has helped, but how do I get rid completely?[url]
This shows the patch at the bottom right hand side
|http://thumbsnap.com/7p0nMWre[/url]
This shows the thick blades with some thin amongst it.
This is how the rest of the lawn is
Your pictures are remarkably similar to what my lawn looks like, even after I killed it completely and reseeded last autumn. Doing that has not got rid of my course grass problem - I reckon there must be such a substantial 'bank' of weed grass seeds in the soil that they all just sprang up in parallel with the decent grass that I sowed.This shows the patch at the bottom right hand side
|http://thumbsnap.com/7p0nMWre[/url]This shows the thick blades with some thin amongst it.
This is how the rest of the lawn is
I have tried various things, including using a germination inhibitor (Scotts crabgrass preventer, which I ordered from the US). Nothing has worked.
One thing I've noticed this year is that there's a lot of flowering grass, producing whitish spikes of flowers. I'm not sure, but this could be Poa annua, which is a weed grass that can germinate in Autumn and overwinter, then it flowers in spring. The fact that it germinates in Autumn fits with my reseeding last year. It also means that my application of germination inhibitor in spring would have been useless against it, although maybe it has prevented other weed grasses germinating, thus reducing my problem down to one type of grass. Poa annua is supposedly annual, but I've read that it has evolved into a myriad of subspecies, some of which are biennial or even perennial to some extent.
One thing is clear: whatever this weed grass is, it likes compacted soil. The white flowers form a distinct band across the lawn that corresponds to the most heavily trodden route between the back door and the patio area. I have attacked this band with a fork, using the "stick it in, wiggle it about, then withdraw" technique. Not sure, but there might be a slight reduction in flowering since I did that. I must up my game and do more forking and spiking. The areas of lawn that receive the least foot traffic are also the areas that have a much better proportion of the fine grass.
One other thing I'm doing differently this year: I'm mowing with the mower on its highest (i.e. tallest, longest) setting, which still isn't all that long. I'm hoping that this will allow the good grass to outcompete the weed grass, but not sure this strategy will work.
One difficulty in tackling weed grasses is identification, which I find virtually impossible. They all look much the same to me, and mowing changes the shape and habit of the grass so dramatically that they never look like the pictures in books or web sites.
I have seen that 'Rescue' product online before and been awfully tempted to order it. I can't justify the price at the moment though, because I'm not currently earning while I retrain (hoping to become a commercial pilot). I wonder whether a group of us would be interested in buying a bottle and sharing it - a single bottle treats a ridiculously large area, and the cost saving would make it worth travelling to collect the bottle from the current holder. Could make a nice social group as well - "Weed Grass Fighters' Support Group".
Edited to add: Hmmm... See below.
Edited by Dr Mike Oxgreen on Thursday 21st July 07:34
There really isn't an easy answer I'm afraid, problem being, you rib it out and seed in place, you then have a bare bit of soil open for any incoming seeds to germinate. Best thing is to just keep it as healthy as possible and mown correctly, then it will just blend in. It stands out the most when the normal grass u like is suffering, so drought, winter etc. It has certainly been worse this year, in most parts of the country the winter just wasn't cold enough to stop it growing.
One thing with the more extreme weather we are getting these days is stressing lawns more and more, and I find this starts setting the men from the boys when it comes to lawn treatment company's. During dry spells this compacts the soil more than normal, we had many more leather jackets this year which tend to go for the finer grass, leaving the thicker stuff behind, dry patch is still rife in many places too.
I'd always recommend hollow tining each year now, keep the fert topped up and keep it mown regularly.
With regards to buying professional products, it's illegal for them to sell it to the public, but often they don't Check on these things.
About seeding grass, again with extreme weathers this encourages it more, wet spells to sudden hot spells as it stresses the plant, this is probably why it's worse where you walk as your stressing the plant more and this encourages the plant to seed, usually worse spring and autumn.
One thing with the more extreme weather we are getting these days is stressing lawns more and more, and I find this starts setting the men from the boys when it comes to lawn treatment company's. During dry spells this compacts the soil more than normal, we had many more leather jackets this year which tend to go for the finer grass, leaving the thicker stuff behind, dry patch is still rife in many places too.
I'd always recommend hollow tining each year now, keep the fert topped up and keep it mown regularly.
With regards to buying professional products, it's illegal for them to sell it to the public, but often they don't Check on these things.
About seeding grass, again with extreme weathers this encourages it more, wet spells to sudden hot spells as it stresses the plant, this is probably why it's worse where you walk as your stressing the plant more and this encourages the plant to seed, usually worse spring and autumn.
505diff said:
Rib, I've got Yorkshire fog starting to take hold in places, it seems to becoming other less looked after gardens, so killing it and reseeding will be an ongoing task. I've seen this stuff, https://www.pitchcare.com/shop/professional-select... is it something Green Thumb would use as a spot treatment, as it's a fair cost but would take about 20 years to use up on my lawn!
Not a product I know any of us use, more designed for green keepers, plus just so expensive for something we wouldn't have much call for
Poa annua - my least favourite subject. It is a nightmare to deal with, although I do find myself admiring its tenacity (begrudgingly). It's a real opportunist, seeding prolifically whenever the weather is ideal for germination. Its seeds become viable within days and can be hard to remove by mowing as they'll often grow close to ground level so avoid the mower blades, even at cutting heights of just 5mm. Being shallow rooted, compacted soil isn't as much of an issue for Poa annua as it is for desirable grasses, so it can out compete them in well trodden areas of the lawn.
When dealing with Poa annua I try to use its strengths against it and turn the environmental conditions in favour of the desirable grasses. Because of its shallow roots it's more prone to environmental stresses such as availability of water and nutrients, so reducing water and feeding in problem areas can help reduce its competitive advantages. Gentle raking before mowing or the fitting of a grooming rake to the mower if available can lift some of its seed heads above the cutting height. Even then, its profilic seeding ability is still a major problem.
Skimming off and replacing the top layer of soil to remove the grass and its seed bank is effective but impractical on all but the smallest areas. Sowing additional desirable seed through the year can help by providing a "good" seed bank to compete with that of the Poa annua but the Poa annua will, by its nature, always have an easier time of germinating and flourishing as it needs only to survive long enough to set more seed.
Soil disturbance again plays into the hands of Poa annua by giving its seeds opportunity to germinate. Avoid scarifying and verticutting problem areas. Thatch build up can be dealt with by regular top dressing throughout the year.
On a new lawn, the conditions required to get it established are perfect for Poa annua so most of the above is all well and good in theory but completely impractical for the most part in such situations.
I've reluctantly come to the conclusion that it's a waiting game. Killing off and re seeding the lawn does at least deal with other less tenacious weed grasses so it's no bad thing to do but if Poa annua has a seedbank then it's going to come back with renewed vigour in the short term unless the rootzone is also changed. Dealing with the Poa annua then becomes a long term strategy once the lawn has re established. Changing the Nature of Your Greens (pdf download) is an interesting article that I linked to back in the 2015 Lawn Thread, but it's worth linking again as it does deal with the issues of competitiveness and enviromnental conditions that favour Poa annua far better than I can.
There is one final, faster way to deal with the problem which I've discovered quite by accident this year: move house. It's also effective on bind weed and problems with neighbours' cats. It may, however, not always be the most practical solution.
When dealing with Poa annua I try to use its strengths against it and turn the environmental conditions in favour of the desirable grasses. Because of its shallow roots it's more prone to environmental stresses such as availability of water and nutrients, so reducing water and feeding in problem areas can help reduce its competitive advantages. Gentle raking before mowing or the fitting of a grooming rake to the mower if available can lift some of its seed heads above the cutting height. Even then, its profilic seeding ability is still a major problem.
Skimming off and replacing the top layer of soil to remove the grass and its seed bank is effective but impractical on all but the smallest areas. Sowing additional desirable seed through the year can help by providing a "good" seed bank to compete with that of the Poa annua but the Poa annua will, by its nature, always have an easier time of germinating and flourishing as it needs only to survive long enough to set more seed.
Soil disturbance again plays into the hands of Poa annua by giving its seeds opportunity to germinate. Avoid scarifying and verticutting problem areas. Thatch build up can be dealt with by regular top dressing throughout the year.
On a new lawn, the conditions required to get it established are perfect for Poa annua so most of the above is all well and good in theory but completely impractical for the most part in such situations.
I've reluctantly come to the conclusion that it's a waiting game. Killing off and re seeding the lawn does at least deal with other less tenacious weed grasses so it's no bad thing to do but if Poa annua has a seedbank then it's going to come back with renewed vigour in the short term unless the rootzone is also changed. Dealing with the Poa annua then becomes a long term strategy once the lawn has re established. Changing the Nature of Your Greens (pdf download) is an interesting article that I linked to back in the 2015 Lawn Thread, but it's worth linking again as it does deal with the issues of competitiveness and enviromnental conditions that favour Poa annua far better than I can.
There is one final, faster way to deal with the problem which I've discovered quite by accident this year: move house. It's also effective on bind weed and problems with neighbours' cats. It may, however, not always be the most practical solution.
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