Party Wall Agreement Advice needed

Party Wall Agreement Advice needed

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Discussion

Ribol

Original Poster:

11,196 posts

257 months

Thursday 19th May 2016
quotequote all
I am building a single storey ground floor extension, it isn’t anything out of the ordinary but for whatever reason one of my neighbours (Neigh1) has been against my doing this from the start. I think his main objection is that it will disturb his life and he would rather not have to put up with it. Whilst I appreciate where he is coming from I am not going to bin the idea just because it doesn’t suit him. For the record I have done everything I can to be neighbourly to this bloke, including recently spending half a day helping him clear his drains because he couldn’t do it on his own – so no existing problems here.

To set the scene, we are talking about two semis that have two separate single car garages in the gap between them, if that makes sense. My plan is to take my garage down and start my extension at the boundary line and build boundary to boundary. The neighbour on the other side (Neigh2) has consented to work going ahead without involving a party wall agreement, so that side is sorted.
The planners saw through the ridiculous list of objections by Neigh1 and with the exception of one small change, which I think they only did to humour him, I now have planning. Which brings me to the party wall question ...................

I have served Neigh1 with both an Excavation works notice (three metres) and Line of junction notice (new wall wholly on your land) yesterday, so the 14 days started yesterday 18/5/2016.
My understanding of this process is that within 14 days he should either sign the consent and let me get on with my life, agree to a joint PW surveyor or appoint one of his own telling me who that is.
However, I suspect he will do nothing so as to delay things as much as he can (dissent?).

Could anyone either in this line of work or very familiar with how this works suggest what I need to do from my end at the end of the 14 days so I have it in place to avoid any delays that the process allows. Talking to the Neigh1 is going to be a waste of time, so it has to be advice based on things he cannot delay. I have got a builder lined up for the start of August and whilst a delay would not make much difference to my life it might his so I need to keep this process moving. I also don’t want the builder to be forced on to his next job and end up doing this 10/12 week job in winter.

Thanks for any advice in advance, sorry for droning on, I feel better already hippy


Edited by Ribol on Sunday 31st July 04:30

Tom_C76

1,923 posts

187 months

Thursday 19th May 2016
quotequote all
If he doesn't assent within the 14 days he is deemed to dissent by default. You then need to employ a party wall surveyor, if you don't already have one in place to serve the notice.

Ribol

Original Poster:

11,196 posts

257 months

Thursday 19th May 2016
quotequote all
Tom_C76 said:
If he doesn't assent within the 14 days he is deemed to dissent by default. You then need to employ a party wall surveyor, if you don't already have one in place to serve the notice.
Ok, but would that be a joint one or one just for me?

What I am trying to find out is what happens if he does nothing, there surely must be some mechanism in place for when someone is being awkard just because they can?

Grobag

110 posts

134 months

Thursday 19th May 2016
quotequote all
If the neighbour does nothing within the 14 days then he's deemed to have dissented. You follow it up with a second letter advising him that failing to reply is deemed as dissenting, in which case he needs to appoint a Surveyor to represent him. He can either agree to using your chap as a Joint Surveyor, or appoint his own. He has a fixed time to do this, I think its a further 10 days. If there's still no reply, you can progress matters without him and appoint a separate surveyor to act on his behalf and deal with them to move things to a conclusion.

Its the way in which the Act circumvents a neighbour from delaying the works by not communicating.


Ribol

Original Poster:

11,196 posts

257 months

Thursday 19th May 2016
quotequote all
Grobag said:
If there's still no reply, you can progress matters without him and appoint a separate surveyor to act on his behalf and deal with them to move things to a conclusion.

Its the way in which the Act circumvents a neighbour from delaying the works by not communicating.
Thankfully it seems they have thought this type of scenario through then!

If that situation arises, past the further 10 days etc, could I then appoint mine to be joint surveyor or would it have to be someone else, which would obviously cost considerably more?

Tom_C76

1,923 posts

187 months

Thursday 19th May 2016
quotequote all
Ribol said:
Grobag said:
If there's still no reply, you can progress matters without him and appoint a separate surveyor to act on his behalf and deal with them to move things to a conclusion.

Its the way in which the Act circumvents a neighbour from delaying the works by not communicating.
Thankfully it seems they have thought this type of scenario through then!

If that situation arises, past the further 10 days etc, could I then appoint mine to be joint surveyor or would it have to be someone else, which would obviously cost considerably more?
I think it has to be two separate surveyors, and maybe a third if the two can't agree. Unless you can find two surveyors that get on well...

We don't do PW work, but if you're anywhere near Cambridge I could give some recommendations.

Mr GrimNasty

8,172 posts

169 months

Thursday 19th May 2016
quotequote all
All the common situations/actions are pretty well covered in the PWA booklet.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...

Mandat

3,879 posts

237 months

Thursday 19th May 2016
quotequote all
Have a look at the P&T club website, which specialises in party wall surveying.

The below link will help you find a local surveyor, to where ever you are.


http://www.partywalls.org.uk/find_a_party_wall_pro...

Stegel

1,950 posts

173 months

Friday 20th May 2016
quotequote all
I have come across one building owner's surveyor who appointed himself as agreed surveyor for a silent neighbour, despite this not being correct, there being 5 "adjoining owner's" surveyors appointed by other neighbours (any one of which he could have appointed) and at least two of us telling him to his face he was wrong. Your surveyor will need to appoint someone on your neighbour's behalf, and they together will agree on a third surveyor, but the third surveyor does not get involved (or need paying!) unless the first two cannot reach agreement. In that situation, I would appoint someone who I knew was competent and sensible, not a patsy or an awkward so-and-so.

Ribol

Original Poster:

11,196 posts

257 months

Friday 20th May 2016
quotequote all
Lots of good advice here, thanks to one and all bow

I now get where I am and will do whatever is necessary to move forward, it's a shame people can't all just work things out between themselves, but hey hippy

Final question:

As far as I can make out this is all about the neighbour trying to delay my job (futile I know) so I am assuming he will not respond in the 14 days.
So then I point out we are in dissent and tell him he has a further 10 days to come up with his PW surveyor.
He does nothing then either, so I appoint one on his behalf (a different one to mine).

What if he refuses to comunicate with him, then what?

bobtail4x4

3,701 posts

108 months

Friday 20th May 2016
quotequote all
tell him a neighbour dispute will affect his house sale if he wants to move.

Ribol

Original Poster:

11,196 posts

257 months

Friday 20th May 2016
quotequote all
bobtail4x4 said:
tell him a neighbour dispute will affect his house sale if he wants to move.
Good point but he has been there 40 years and I suspect the next place he will be moving to will be either a residential home or a cemetary.

Stegel

1,950 posts

173 months

Friday 20th May 2016
quotequote all
The surveyor your surveyor appoints will make contact, with your neighbour, but if he ignores him, the surveyor will just carry on and act "for the wall". I have just appointed a surveyor, already appointed by another adjoining owner, to act for a derelict building where notices on the building and to the owner's registered address have been ignored. He will proceed, and we will publish an award, without us ever having spoken to the owner. BTW any decent PW surveyor will have no concern with your neighbours other gripes about the development, and will act in accordance with the Act.

mk1fan

10,507 posts

224 months

Friday 20th May 2016
quotequote all
bobtail4x4 said:
tell him a neighbour dispute will affect his house sale if he wants to move.
Party Wall Dissent does not constitute a Neighbour Dispute.

mk1fan

10,507 posts

224 months

Friday 20th May 2016
quotequote all
Stegel said:
The surveyor your surveyor appoints will make contact, with your neighbour, but if he ignores him, the surveyor will just carry on and act "for the wall". I have just appointed a surveyor, already appointed by another adjoining owner, to act for a derelict building where notices on the building and to the owner's registered address have been ignored. He will proceed, and we will publish an award, without us ever having spoken to the owner. BTW any decent PW surveyor will have no concern with your neighbours other gripes about the development, and will act in accordance with the Act.
This.

If you have had no respose after 14-days then you need to serve Notice that you require them to act or that you will act Ex Parte. Can't remember the section off the top of my head. Do you have a Surveyor yet? If you don't then get one so thay can serve the 'correct' Ex Parte notice. What you don't want is grounds for setting any Award aside.

It is a basic understanding for a Party Wall Surveyor that they must act in the interest of the property not the person - ie their Client is the 'Wall'. It's a concept layman find difficult to understand but it is pretty simple really.

bobtail4x4

3,701 posts

108 months

Friday 20th May 2016
quotequote all
mk1fan said:
bobtail4x4 said:
tell him a neighbour dispute will affect his house sale if he wants to move.
Party Wall Dissent does not constitute a Neighbour Dispute.
I know that and now we all know it, but the other bloke wont.

Ribol

Original Poster:

11,196 posts

257 months

Thursday 2nd June 2016
quotequote all
mk1fan said:
Stegel said:
The surveyor your surveyor appoints will make contact, with your neighbour, but if he ignores him, the surveyor will just carry on and act "for the wall". I have just appointed a surveyor, already appointed by another adjoining owner, to act for a derelict building where notices on the building and to the owner's registered address have been ignored. He will proceed, and we will publish an award, without us ever having spoken to the owner. BTW any decent PW surveyor will have no concern with your neighbours other gripes about the development, and will act in accordance with the Act.
This.

If you have had no respose after 14-days then you need to serve Notice that you require them to act or that you will act Ex Parte. Can't remember the section off the top of my head. Do you have a Surveyor yet? If you don't then get one so thay can serve the 'correct' Ex Parte notice. What you don't want is grounds for setting any Award aside.

It is a basic understanding for a Party Wall Surveyor that they must act in the interest of the property not the person - ie their Client is the 'Wall'. It's a concept layman find difficult to understand but it is pretty simple really.
Thanks to both for this sum up thumbup

The situation today is that the neighbour has not done anything about getting a PWS in response to the 14 day notices, so we (my PWS) have today served the 10 day notice.

It is a shame he is opting to go down this route but having now received a copy of the 4 pages of objections type he sent into planning it is clear to see that the party wall is the least of his issues rotate

Ribol

Original Poster:

11,196 posts

257 months

Wednesday 20th July 2016
quotequote all
This story has moved on and we now have a party wall surveyor each, after untold nitpicking and backwards and forwards we are getting close to an award.

My understanding is the way this process works is that I have to pay for both of them, as this is my project, fair enough.
What I am not so sold on is that my neighbour’s PWS can charge me whatever he considers to be “reasonable fees”. This sounds a bit like handing someone over a blank cheque and saying fill it in when you finish, which is not something I would ever consider doing in any normal scenario.

My PWS is a decent bloke and we agreed a fixed fee at the start, he gets on with things and is getting the job done as promised, no problem there.
The neighbour’s one on the other hand comes across as a complete shyster. I have noticed there have been a lot of things needing to be cleared up at length, one at the time, possibly in the interest of increasing billable hours(?)

Does anyone know if I have to just pay whatever I am asked for or can I dispute fees in any way if I consider them to be over the top?

mk1fan

10,507 posts

224 months

Wednesday 20th July 2016
quotequote all
Unless the fee is ludicrously large then you are stuck with it.

I would say that there are some very high hourly rates being charged by some surveyors for what is a simple process.

The Surveyors are bound by the Act irregardless of who appoints them. If your appointed surveyor has not questioned the issues being raised then they clearly agree they need addressing.

What goes around comes around though. Keep the details of the expensive Surveyor and appoint them if your neighbour chooses to do works.

Ribol

Original Poster:

11,196 posts

257 months

Thursday 28th July 2016
quotequote all
mk1fan said:
I would say that there are some very high hourly rates being charged by some surveyors for what is a simple process.
I now have an award and the invoices for both PWSs have arrived.

I am the one having the work done and my PWS has charged me £750.00 (no VAT on top) for his part

The surveyor my neighbour appointed has invoiced me for £1482.00 (including VAT) (£190.00 + VAT per hour apparently)

My understanding is my PWS will actually have done more work for what I regard a fair price, I think the other guy has stronged it a bit.

Anyone vaguely in the business got any thoughts on these numbers?

If over the top is there anything I can do about it?