How small would you like to go?
Discussion
I know PH is very much a right-wing political viewpoint entity as a whole, and I would say I am in the centre-right area. There are also a minority left-wing posters it is accepted.
But with all that is going on politically just recently I am wondering how small you would wish the UK/England to become?
For example, in the so called "good old days" we used to be an empire controlling the world.
Then we just became the UK with a few remains of the empire under our direct control.
Then we became a member of the EU.
Then we are likely to now just be the UK.
But soon after we may become just England and Wales.
With a possibility of London wanting out also, so we'd become England/Wales minus London.
There has already been talk of individual counties within England wanting devolution powers etc.
So then we are down to the public only having a say on their own county.
....
From the world down to a small county. That is a big downgrade of electorate privilege is it not?
Then would there be moves for individual other cities & towns within counties to want their own further devolution powers? Leaving people to basically run their own back yard.... literally!
Ok, I am bringing the argument to an extreme... but what is it with the trend to want to become smaller?
But with all that is going on politically just recently I am wondering how small you would wish the UK/England to become?
For example, in the so called "good old days" we used to be an empire controlling the world.
Then we just became the UK with a few remains of the empire under our direct control.
Then we became a member of the EU.
Then we are likely to now just be the UK.
But soon after we may become just England and Wales.
With a possibility of London wanting out also, so we'd become England/Wales minus London.
There has already been talk of individual counties within England wanting devolution powers etc.
So then we are down to the public only having a say on their own county.
....
From the world down to a small county. That is a big downgrade of electorate privilege is it not?
Then would there be moves for individual other cities & towns within counties to want their own further devolution powers? Leaving people to basically run their own back yard.... literally!
Ok, I am bringing the argument to an extreme... but what is it with the trend to want to become smaller?
The has never been a very stable political entity. It came into being officially with the joining of Scotland to England and Wales in 1707.
Ireland only became a full blown member of the UK in 1801.
26 out of the 32 counties of Ireland left the UK in 1921.
Who knows what its next variation will be.
Ireland only became a full blown member of the UK in 1801.
26 out of the 32 counties of Ireland left the UK in 1921.
Who knows what its next variation will be.
Accepting that as a valid point, is it a good direction for the UK to become a smaller entity given that everything is tending towards being more global?
In my view a UK not being part of a larger entity such as the EU creates small England.
With the potential of it becoming small London and small England.
In my view a UK not being part of a larger entity such as the EU creates small England.
With the potential of it becoming small London and small England.
InfiniteVoltage said:
... but what is it with the trend to want to become smaller?
For me, it's the same as choosing which company I work for. I cannot think of anything worse than working for a huge company with thousands of employees. The bureaucracy and red tape would annoy me daily. The inertia would annoy me in the long term. To fundamentally change anything is almost impossible.A small company feels light and efficient. If required by its market, it can change direction quickly. Inefficient internal processes can be quickly fixed. Ineffective staff can be easily identified. If you have a problem with anything you just walk across the office and speak to the MD.
Many people will disagree with me which is fine. They will have careers in the NHS or a company like Apple or BP and enjoy all sorts of benefits that don't interest me.
I personally don't see nationality and politics any differently.
InfiniteVoltage said:
but what is it with the trend to want to become smaller?
If we look at the trend globally isn't it for everywhere to become smaller? I can only think of Germany where two countries joined together in fairly recent history (there are probably others).USSR
Czechoslovakia
Yugoslavia
Sudan
Jimbeaux said:
Smollet said:
I'm sorry but how can London want out? It's like saying Truro wants out.What planet are you on?
I am with you on this, that is just plain silly IMO.And/or we become a federal country with Westminster controlling foreign affairs, defence, etc., and each member country/region with it's own government?
If we go ahead and leave the EU, how many companies will leave London and how many jobs will be lost...?!
For years, the EU have pushed for the financial services industry to leave the UK and maybe now the UK has voted for it to leave...
Smollet said:
I'm sorry but how can London want out? It's like saying Truro wants out.What planet are you on?
No, it's more like Barcelona saying it wants out in Spain. The rest of Spain craps itself.OK, it would be a bit weird for London alone to leave, but if the South East were to go, the rest of the country would collapse.
Is it realistically ever going to happen? Probably not. Would it be nice to be part of Europe's richest country? Yes please.
Edinburger said:
Jimbeaux said:
Smollet said:
I'm sorry but how can London want out? It's like saying Truro wants out.What planet are you on?
I am with you on this, that is just plain silly IMO.And/or we become a federal country with Westminster controlling foreign affairs, defence, etc., and each member country/region with it's own government?
If we go ahead and leave the EU, how many companies will leave London and how many jobs will be lost...?!
For years, the EU have pushed for the financial services industry to leave the UK and maybe now the UK has voted for it to leave...
InfiniteVoltage said:
Accepting that as a valid point, is it a good direction for the UK to become a smaller entity given that everything is tending towards being more global?
In my view a UK not being part of a larger entity such as the EU creates small England.
With the potential of it becoming small London and small England.
It's about sovereignty. As a single entity we can act globally. We're still the 5th/6th/5th (which is it today?) biggest economy on the planet, culturally we project a far, far bigger image than our size warrants and we have good relations with a large part of the globe.In my view a UK not being part of a larger entity such as the EU creates small England.
With the potential of it becoming small London and small England.
As a member of the EU, we may be part of a larger entity but we're only 1/28th of the whole and have to take it's line on every major decision including trade whether or not it's in our best interests. What's the EU's cultural influence globally?
We ran the empire. We sure as s
t don't run the EU. It's accepted we can't run an empire any longer, but it's difficult to say we're becoming 'smaller' by emerging from a group of 28 and becoming our own country again.Mark Benson said:
InfiniteVoltage said:
Accepting that as a valid point, is it a good direction for the UK to become a smaller entity given that everything is tending towards being more global?
In my view a UK not being part of a larger entity such as the EU creates small England.
With the potential of it becoming small London and small England.
It's about sovereignty. As a single entity we can act globally. We're still the 5th/6th/5th (which is it today?) biggest economy on the planet, culturally we project a far, far bigger image than our size warrants and we have good relations with a large part of the globe.In my view a UK not being part of a larger entity such as the EU creates small England.
With the potential of it becoming small London and small England.
As a member of the EU, we may be part of a larger entity but we're only 1/28th of the whole and have to take it's line on every major decision including trade whether or not it's in our best interests. What's the EU's cultural influence globally?
We ran the empire. We sure as s
t don't run the EU. It's accepted we can't run an empire any longer, but it's difficult to say we're becoming 'smaller' by emerging from a group of 28 and becoming our own country again.IMO the UK and FWIW the UK within the EU would work best if the UK were split up into around 6-10 states with more self-rule perhaps not a million miles from america. Large enough to have muscle yet small enough to focus on their own strengths/issues more, whats become very apparent in recent times is as the UK grows in population the extremities like scotland, the north etc feel more and more marginalised by a westminster/london-centric country.
The problem with the EU is it was yet another layer of bureaucracy and governship on top of the multiple layers we already have, many of which were decided by who could spear some other chump better 400 years ago and increasingly irrelevant in a globalised economy. You don't need or want brussels AND westminstier within the EU but we don't trust them yet enough that we're in limbo with a foot in both camps. Thats not something - short of unforeseen circumstance - I'd expect to solve within our lifetimes so we should be laying the foundations for something to supercede our nation states, not trying to rush like fools to design and implement a weak shell of quasi supreme governance then trying to validate/ accept it retrospectively.
The problem with the EU is it was yet another layer of bureaucracy and governship on top of the multiple layers we already have, many of which were decided by who could spear some other chump better 400 years ago and increasingly irrelevant in a globalised economy. You don't need or want brussels AND westminstier within the EU but we don't trust them yet enough that we're in limbo with a foot in both camps. Thats not something - short of unforeseen circumstance - I'd expect to solve within our lifetimes so we should be laying the foundations for something to supercede our nation states, not trying to rush like fools to design and implement a weak shell of quasi supreme governance then trying to validate/ accept it retrospectively.
Kermit power said:
Smollet said:
I'm sorry but how can London want out? It's like saying Truro wants out.What planet are you on?
No, it's more like Barcelona saying it wants out in Spain. The rest of Spain craps itself.OK, it would be a bit weird for London alone to leave, but if the South East were to go, the rest of the country would collapse.
Is it realistically ever going to happen? Probably not. Would it be nice to be part of Europe's richest country? Yes please.
M.
I'd like to see the figures but I have no issue in principal with Scotland /N Ireland / Wales leaving, indeed I'd like to remove N Ireland as it's just a drain on resources and if we do leave the EU it's going to get a lot worse.
Talk of London etc leaving is ridiculous - yes it earns much of the money but most of the money is also spent there.
Talk of London etc leaving is ridiculous - yes it earns much of the money but most of the money is also spent there.
London424 said:
If we look at the trend globally isn't it for everywhere to become smaller? I can only think of Germany where two countries joined together in fairly recent history (there are probably others).
USSR
Czechoslovakia
Yugoslavia
Sudan
And at some point it will go larger again. History trends swing about all over the place. USSR
Czechoslovakia
Yugoslavia
Sudan
For example, Yugoslavia was formed when a number of Slavonic states, formerly part of the much bigger Ottoman and Austro-Hungarian Empires, were artificially merged to form a new country for all Slavs. The trouble was, all Slavs didn't get on with each other. This resulted in them all splitting apart again in the early 1990s.
Germany and Italy are themselves formed from the merger of former independent states.
There is always tension between different areas of Europe because of their separate independent histories, which manifests itself in the form of different languages and cultures. As is implied by the initial question, even the UK is a kind of "forced" arrangement between groups on these islands who haven't always wanted to be "united with England".
And let's face it, the notion of the British Isles all being together in a "United" kingdom emanated from England - and was brought about sometimes through the use of force and oppression.
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