Have I been done by a builder?

[joshcowin]

Wacky Racer said:

Little Lofty said:

I agree that up front payments should be avoided, but expecting the whole job to be completed without paying a penny is also not right. I couldn't go to John Lewis and walk out with a new TV saying I'll go back and pay if I decide I'm happy with it. There's got to be a bit of give and take. I've seen plenty of small businesses go to the wall because customers couldn't or simply wouldn't pay for the work that had been done.

This.

There is a good balance! A small deposit say 5-10% value of the work secures the builder and also shows commitment by the client!

On all our small works (less than 50k) a deposit is asked for! On all other works and some below this contracts are used to establish intent/trust.

[magooagain]

I estimate work in stages. It's clear for the client. I ask for a percentage up front to cover materials for the first stage.And then more stage payments as the work progresses. I Allways make sure that the customer is happy and in control of the finances.

When all works are complete and the client is happy I expect my final payment immediately.

[V8RX7]

Garvin said:

V8RX7 said:

Garvin said:

A respectable builder will run a respectable business and, like all respectable businesses, does not need paying for materials on delivery - they will have accounts with their suppliers that will be a minimum of 1 month payment and that will be a month after the supplier's invoice is provided which can be up to another month.

Equally there are as many dodgy customers as builders, would you put £10k of materials on site at risk as well as your labour without being paid ?

I wouldn't.

Your prerogative but then it's my prerogative not to employ you. Having the materials 'at risk' as you put it usually acts as a good incentive for the builder to prioritise your job and not wander off with your hard earned in his pocket. I wonder how many private punters are going to suddenly arrange the removal and storage of £10k worth of building materials in very short order? I would only agree to pay up front for 'bespoke' materials specific to the job but would also ensure that title transferred with payment and that this was clearly written into the contract and receipted.

You numpty - the punter isn't going to move / steal it - they just don't pay after you've built it in and no matter what the contract states in UK law a builder can't legally demolish what he's built - and even if he does all materials are basically scrap after they've been fitted.

From your two posts - I know enough about you, not to work for you.

I've got a Plasterer coming to my job on Wed who I first spoke yesterday, both he and I were vouched for by the Electrician, he decided to work for me as he has a bad feeling about the guy he was supposed to be working for, who no doubt booked him weeks ahead.

[Garvin]

V8RX7 said:

Garvin said:

V8RX7 said:

Garvin said:

A respectable builder will run a respectable business and, like all respectable businesses, does not need paying for materials on delivery - they will have accounts with their suppliers that will be a minimum of 1 month payment and that will be a month after the supplier's invoice is provided which can be up to another month.

Equally there are as many dodgy customers as builders, would you put £10k of materials on site at risk as well as your labour without being paid ?

I wouldn't.

Your prerogative but then it's my prerogative not to employ you. Having the materials 'at risk' as you put it usually acts as a good incentive for the builder to prioritise your job and not wander off with your hard earned in his pocket. I wonder how many private punters are going to suddenly arrange the removal and storage of £10k worth of building materials in very short order? I would only agree to pay up front for 'bespoke' materials specific to the job but would also ensure that title transferred with payment and that this was clearly written into the contract and receipted.

You numpty - the punter isn't going to move / steal it - they just don't pay after you've built it in and no matter what the contract states in UK law a builder can't legally demolish what he's built - and even if he does all materials are basically scrap after they've been fitted.

From your two posts - I know enough about you, not to work for you.

I've got a Plasterer coming to my job on Wed who I first spoke yesterday, both he and I were vouched for by the Electrician, he decided to work for me as he has a bad feeling about the guy he was supposed to be working for, who no doubt booked him weeks ahead.

Didn't take you long to descend to name calling and making wild assumptions about people just because someone has a different opinion to you. There are two sides to any story and as for the client not paying there is the counter risk that if the client pays up front then the builder doesn't turn up as per the OP to get on with the job. You want all the risk to be taken by the client, I think the risk should be taken by the contractor or at the very least shared in some way, usually via clear stage payments against defined levels of achievement.

As I said before it's your prerogative not to work for me and my prerogative not to employ you! Simples. No need for abuse. There are plenty of tradesman who will accept that they, rather than the client, should hold the risk and IME they are usually the best sort.

[V8RX7]

Garvin said:

Didn't take you long to descend to name calling and making wild assumptions about people just because someone has a different opinion to you. There are two sides to any story and as for the client not paying there is the counter risk that if the client pays up front then the builder doesn't turn up as per the OP to get on with the job. You want all the risk to be taken by the client, I think the risk should be taken by the contractor or at the very least shared in some way, usually via clear stage payments against defined levels of achievement.

As I said before it's your prerogative not to work for me and my prerogative not to employ you! Simples. No need for abuse. There are plenty of tradesman who will accept that they, rather than the client, should hold the risk and IME they are usually the best sort.

I used numpty as it was a polite way of saying moron, cretin, fking idiot...

Once you have demonstrated you are ignorant it's best to stop rather than carry on however as you have...

If I supply £10k of materials and you pay for them when they arrive - are they going to build themselves ?

Probably not !

Therefore you are only paying for what is there, I am paying for the labour - you still have zero risk, I have merely reduced my risk.

[Garvin]

V8RX7 said:

Garvin said:

Didn't take you long to descend to name calling and making wild assumptions about people just because someone has a different opinion to you. There are two sides to any story and as for the client not paying there is the counter risk that if the client pays up front then the builder doesn't turn up as per the OP to get on with the job. You want all the risk to be taken by the client, I think the risk should be taken by the contractor or at the very least shared in some way, usually via clear stage payments against defined levels of achievement.

As I said before it's your prerogative not to work for me and my prerogative not to employ you! Simples. No need for abuse. There are plenty of tradesman who will accept that they, rather than the client, should hold the risk and IME they are usually the best sort.

I used numpty as it was a polite way of saying moron, cretin, fking idiot...

Once you have demonstrated you are ignorant it's best to stop rather than carry on however as you have...

If I supply £10k of materials and you pay for them when they arrive - are they going to build themselves ?

Probably not !

Therefore you are only paying for what is there, I am paying for the labour - you still have zero risk, I have merely reduced my risk.

You are clearly not getting this are you. You are making the assumption that all contractors will get on with the work. They don't. Under your scheme the contractor has the dosh for the materials that he doesn't have to pay for for many weeks and slopes off to do another job or to play golf or whatever and will turn up as and when he wants to at zero risk to himself while the client is left wondering what the hell is happening. Indeed the contractor might not come back to complete the job at all!

You demonstrate a lack of understanding and an overly crude and aggressive manner which convinces me that you are, indeed, definitely not the contractor to employ!

[Terminator X]

Contract ffs, does no one use a contract any more?!

TX.

[Garvin]

Terminator X said:

Contract ffs, does no one use a contract any more?!

TX.

Yes, I have always insisted on a written contract. However, I have had many contractors refuse to work with a written contract and have not been employed. It is probably no coincidence that I also know a few people who have launched work without a contract and have been completely fleeced by the contractor due to 'additional' activities required - this, by all accounts, is the normal approach of a quite a few builders, growing the cost when on the job due to regular 'additional' activities.

[nute]

As a surveyor I often get asked to look at either building jobs which have been very poorly completed or for advice where a contractor has been paid in advance and then done very little. Thankfully the majority of builders are decent honest people but there are a few who are not and a few who are incompetent.

Always have a written agreement and if it's for anything significant use a proper contract. They don't need to be very complex but protect both parties if a problem crops up. If it's for a large sum of money get one drawn up by someone who knows what they are doing.

I also run lots of building contracts for clients ranging from a few hundred pounds to hundreds of thousands. I will never pay upfront and no contactors I use expect that, even those who are a one man band. Any decent contractor should be able to fund the purchase of materials, if he's that short of money that he can't then something is wrong. That said if the materials cost is high there is nothing wrong with an interim valuation a week or two in when materials are on site.

[joshcowin]

nute said:

As a surveyor I often get asked to look at either building jobs which have been very poorly completed or for advice where a contractor has been paid in advance and then done very little. Thankfully the majority of builders are decent honest people but there are a few who are not and a few who are incompetent.

Always have a written agreement and if it's for anything significant use a proper contract. They don't need to be very complex but protect both parties if a problem crops up. If it's for a large sum of money get one drawn up by someone who knows what they are doing.

I also run lots of building contracts for clients ranging from a few hundred pounds to hundreds of thousands. I will never pay upfront and no contactors I use expect that, even those who are a one man band. Any decent contractor should be able to fund the purchase of materials, if he's that short of money that he can't then something is wrong. That said if the materials cost is high there is nothing wrong with an interim valuation a week or two in when materials are on site.

Completely agree with the contract side of things, you can buy basic building contracts online! (JCT)

I do not agree with your last paragraph however, it is not always down to purely financial reasons why a deposit is requested!

[Leroy902]

I have a full log of phone message conversations, him constantly telling me he'll pay me back, the last one being yesterday, saying "he's waiting for a payment to clear", and will repay me, though I have no confidence in anything he says with the amount of false promises he's made over the past few weeks.

I'm trying to be careful with what I write in these messages, not to put any sort of physical threats in them.

I went down to the address he has on the invoices but got no answer.
I asked his neighbours, showed a picture of him face (his whatapp profile pic with his Mrs), one of the nighbour did recognise him, so I'm pretty sure he either lives there, or has an association with whoever does.

I keep telling him I'm trying to be civil with sorting this out and getting my money back.
My latest idea is having his mug (along with his Mrs) printed out, with a brief description of what's happened, and posting it to the whole street he lives on. I'm not sure if anything constructive will come out of that, I suppose I could tell him of my intentions and it may be enough for him to return the money...

I keep being told by the few I've told about this to go knock his door down, and just take whatever the value of what he owes, it's getting to the point I honestly do feel like doing that.

My Mrs has said to write out a full letter, with a description of what has happened, and post it to him. If there is no reply back, and money returned, then go down legal routes. I'm not sure how much all that would cost.

I'm kind of lost at what the best route is to take at this time. Any advice?

[Turn7]

nute said:

.... Thankfully the majority of builders are decent honest people....

Sorry, but

Having spent 8 years working for a supplier to the average small jobbing builder, my experience is that the majority of employees are only doing it as it requires no apparent written qualifications.

[Too Late]

Leroy902 said:

I have a full log of phone message conversations, him constantly telling me he'll pay me back, the last one being yesterday, saying "he's waiting for a payment to clear", and will repay me, though I have no confidence in anything he says with the amount of false promises he's made over the past few weeks.

I'm trying to be careful with what I write in these messages, not to put any sort of physical threats in them.

I went down to the address he has on the invoices but got no answer.
I asked his neighbours, showed a picture of him face (his whatapp profile pic with his Mrs), one of the nighbour did recognise him, so I'm pretty sure he either lives there, or has an association with whoever does.

I keep telling him I'm trying to be civil with sorting this out and getting my money back.
My latest idea is having his mug (along with his Mrs) printed out, with a brief description of what's happened, and posting it to the whole street he lives on. I'm not sure if anything constructive will come out of that, I suppose I could tell him of my intentions and it may be enough for him to return the money...

I keep being told by the few I've told about this to go knock his door down, and just take whatever the value of what he owes, it's getting to the point I honestly do feel like doing that.

My Mrs has said to write out a full letter, with a description of what has happened, and post it to him. If there is no reply back, and money returned, then go down legal routes. I'm not sure how much all that would cost.

I'm kind of lost at what the best route is to take at this time. Any advice?

Small claims court. Simples. He will be served some court papers and that should knock him in line... You claim the court fees back as well so zero cost for yourself

[Spudler]

Leroy902 said:

Any advice?

Yes, as your good lady suggested.

[Robertj21a]

Too Late said:

Small claims court. Simples. He will be served some court papers and that should knock him in line... You claim the court fees back as well so zero cost for yourself

Agreed. Quite simple - as long as there was a clear agreement, in writing.

[Simon Brooks]

Dog Star said:

They will NEVER turn a job down, even if they can't fit it in, rather they will let you wait.

in my experience they will juggle as many jobs as they can take at any one time, and react to those that shout the loudest about poor attendance

[Leroy902]

I've delivered a letter to him with the full rundown of what has happened, and given him 14 days notice to return what is owed, me, otherwise court action will be taken. Hopefully that'll be enough to get it back.
When I transferred the money online, recipient was to the company name rather than himself.. Is that something I can also use to my advantage if we did end up in court?

Edited by Leroy902 on Tuesday 4th October 13:33

[Drumroll]

I must confess I have been very lucky with the people we have employed to do work around our house. Non of them really advertise for work all of them are busy. Standard of work excellent and all have been honest and said when they felt they couldn't do any work they didn't feel confident in.

The only time I was asked to pay for something first was for the scaffolding when we had the roof done. (and I think that was only because it was a new company our roofers were using)

[Muncher]

I guess I am pretty fortunate in that I do most building work myself, or the people who I do use are known and recommended by others in the trade who I trust implicitly so there are very few contractors who I actually use, but I don't think there are too many where I would entertain any significant upfront payment.

I would like to think that having met me and knowing what I do for a living most contractors would be happy with staged payments in arrears. If you do the job as agreed you get paid on demand, it's quite simple. Anyone asking for payment for materials upfront would set alarm bells ringing, I'd happily pay a proper supplier directly myself, but I would never give cash on trust for someone else to make the order.

[Too Late]

Leroy902 said:

I've delivered a letter to him with the full rundown of what has happened, and given him 14 days notice to return what is owed, me, otherwise court action will be taken. Hopefully that'll be enough to get it back.
When I transferred the money online, recipient was to the company name rather than himself.. Is that something I can also use to my advantage if we did end up in court?

Edited by Leroy902 on Tuesday 4th October 13:33

I think you are being to kind.
I would go straight to the courts and let him know when to expect the letter from them. I did.. Funny enough for my claim, my builder called me up 2 days later a 8am after receiving the post...

That night i got the moneys which were owed and the court case was dropped. Simples!