Siematic kitchen v Local Joinery Firm
Discussion
Slagathore said:
The finest, most exotic wood goes in to their particle board! Or another similar word?
Seems bonkers to pay all that and have the same material you would get in a B&Q kitchen. You'd think the core expense is the materials used, and that would be what sets them apart (appliances aside).
The markup must be enormous if they are using the same materials and, presumably, the same construction techniques as the normal trade places.
To be fair to the sort of kitchens being discussed, melamine faced chipboard and veneered chipboard does vary considerably in quality and what B&Q are using will not be the same. Not that that justifies the difference in price, of course, but expensive showrooms and quality magazine advertisements are fSeems bonkers to pay all that and have the same material you would get in a B&Q kitchen. You'd think the core expense is the materials used, and that would be what sets them apart (appliances aside).
The markup must be enormous if they are using the same materials and, presumably, the same construction techniques as the normal trade places.
king expensive, and the customer has to pay for those as well as the kitchen he actually gets.ettore said:
I've just finished a large kitchen extension and the quotes for units (including island and silestone w/tops etc. etc.) ranged from £50,000 to, cough, £200,000! I ended up finding a proper carpenter from 'oop north who hand built, arguably in better materials, exactly the same for £25K!
Go with the craftsman - no need for chipboard ever!
I'm sure the craftsmanship was wonderful, but I'd put a sizeable bet you used all the design and advice given during all those design meetings and quotes to make it work without paying a penny for it. Go give a grand to the designer you copied the most as I you paid the architect to do his work why not theirs. Go with the craftsman - no need for chipboard ever!
RevHappy said:
ettore said:
I've just finished a large kitchen extension and the quotes for units (including island and silestone w/tops etc. etc.) ranged from £50,000 to, cough, £200,000! I ended up finding a proper carpenter from 'oop north who hand built, arguably in better materials, exactly the same for £25K!
Go with the craftsman - no need for chipboard ever!
I'm sure the craftsmanship was wonderful, but I'd put a sizeable bet you used all the design and advice given during all those design meetings and quotes to make it work without paying a penny for it. Go give a grand to the designer you copied the most as I you paid the architect to do his work why not theirs. Go with the craftsman - no need for chipboard ever!
If you are creative and enjoy the design process I would very much recommend finding a craftsmen to work with.
RevHappy said:
I'm sure the craftsmanship was wonderful, but I'd put a sizeable bet you used all the design and advice given during all those design meetings and quotes to make it work without paying a penny for it. Go give a grand to the designer you copied the most as I you paid the architect to do his work why not theirs.
People shouldn't spend hours producing drawings and details if they feel this might happen.They should ask for a payment for design work which they'd knock off the price should they ultimately get the job.
Slagathore said:
The finest, most exotic wood goes in to their particle board! Or another similar word?
Seems bonkers to pay all that and have the same material you would get in a B&Q kitchen. You'd think the core expense is the materials used, and that would be what sets them apart (appliances aside).
The markup must be enormous if they are using the same materials and, presumably, the same construction techniques as the normal trade places.
Chipboard is often unfairly maligned. Kitchens are challenging environments with large swings in humidity and heat. There's a good reason that Chipboard is favoured and if its a well specified grade, it can perform better and remain more dimensionally stable than ply or solid wood.Seems bonkers to pay all that and have the same material you would get in a B&Q kitchen. You'd think the core expense is the materials used, and that would be what sets them apart (appliances aside).
The markup must be enormous if they are using the same materials and, presumably, the same construction techniques as the normal trade places.
The tooling cost to produce consistent runs of identical cabinets, finishes etc can be astronomical. I've spoken to a few independents that frequent PH that openly admit that the Germans make fantastic quality stuff that is hard to replicate without the kit.
Take a closer look at the finish quality - the edge banding, lacquer quality, hinge and runners specs . I've browsed through blum and hafele lists and the top spec stuff isn't cheap.
stanwan said:
Chipboard is often unfairly maligned. Kitchens are challenging environments with large swings in humidity and heat. There's a good reason that Chipboard is favoured and if its a well specified grade, it can perform better and remain more dimensionally stable than ply or solid wood.
Another reason why chipboard is favoured is that it will lie flat on a CNC router, and if melamine faced or pre-lacquered can be easily handled with vacuum equipment.stanwan said:
The tooling cost to produce consistent runs of identical cabinets, finishes etc can be astronomical. I've spoken to a few independents that frequent PH that openly admit that the Germans make fantastic quality stuff that is hard to replicate without the kit.
Usable CNC routers start at around £10K and £30K will get you something fast enough for a decent sized bespoke workshop. The other main expense if replicating a German kitchen will be the edge bander, £10K will get you in the game.Back when I was making kitchens I considered going down that road and could have afforded the outlay but the marketing necessary to get the volume to justify that level of mechanisation would have been difficult.
singlecoil said:
Usable CNC routers start at around £10K and £30K will get you something fast enough for a decent sized bespoke workshop. The other main expense if replicating a German kitchen will be the edge bander, £10K will get you in the game.
Back when I was making kitchens I considered going down that road and could have afforded the outlay but the marketing necessary to get the volume to justify that level of mechanisation would have been difficult.
That is when prices start to get silly. The costs to get adequate market exposure, secure premises for showrooms and enough liquidity to keep the banks and investors happy. Then you are looking at more machinery to keep production numbers up.......Back when I was making kitchens I considered going down that road and could have afforded the outlay but the marketing necessary to get the volume to justify that level of mechanisation would have been difficult.
stanwan said:
That is when prices start to get silly. The costs to get adequate market exposure, secure premises for showrooms and enough liquidity to keep the banks and investors happy. Then you are looking at more machinery to keep production numbers up.......
And more production staff too, which is probably the hardest part for any firm concerned about maintaining its standards.dmsims said:
RobinOakapple said:
JMC180 said:
EXCL any tops which is £8.6k for granite.
How many kitchens are you doing? At least three I would hope at that price. Try your local granite firm for a substantially better price.
singlecoil said:
To be fair to the sort of kitchens being discussed, melamine faced chipboard and veneered chipboard does vary considerably in quality and what B&Q are using will not be the same. Not that that justifies the difference in price, of course, but expensive showrooms and quality magazine advertisements are fking expensive, and the customer has to pay for those as well as the kitchen he actually gets.
Yeah, I expect my thoughts are being biased from seeing the sort of chipboard used in really cheap and sking expensive, and the customer has to pay for those as well as the kitchen he actually gets.t kitchens/furniture. That and I recently looked for some melamine faced chipboard and was surprised at how cheap it was, and naturally assumed it's cheap because it's inferior to other types of sheet styles, especially compared to the cost of melamine faced birch ply, which was about 3x more.It does, however, make me think of how Birch ply or similar would hold up in comparison.
I guess it's the same for lots of products. It still amazes me when topics come up on here about Everest Windows etc, where you'd think that by now people would know you are paying as much for the name, rather than a superior product.
stanwan said:
Chipboard is often unfairly maligned. Kitchens are challenging environments with large swings in humidity and heat. There's a good reason that Chipboard is favoured and if its a well specified grade, it can perform better and remain more dimensionally stable than ply or solid wood.
The tooling cost to produce consistent runs of identical cabinets, finishes etc can be astronomical. I've spoken to a few independents that frequent PH that openly admit that the Germans make fantastic quality stuff that is hard to replicate without the kit.
Take a closer look at the finish quality - the edge banding, lacquer quality, hinge and runners specs . I've browsed through blum and hafele lists and the top spec stuff isn't cheap.
Yeah, I can imagine the workshops they are made in are state of the art, but I'm still struggling to imagine the quality being worth 2-3 times as much. The place that I've had wood cut at have a Holzma Beam saw that cuts to 0.2mm tolerance. It's enormous and I dread to think how much it cost.The tooling cost to produce consistent runs of identical cabinets, finishes etc can be astronomical. I've spoken to a few independents that frequent PH that openly admit that the Germans make fantastic quality stuff that is hard to replicate without the kit.
Take a closer look at the finish quality - the edge banding, lacquer quality, hinge and runners specs . I've browsed through blum and hafele lists and the top spec stuff isn't cheap.
I expect if you want something modern and contemporary, that would be very hard for an independent to replicate, but if it were a traditional style kitchen with no melamine, no edge banding etc to worry about, then an independent would probably be much better and cheaper.
Edited by Slagathore on Thursday 15th September 17:05
Gentlemen, thanks for all your guidance on this. My gut was telling me to go for the local joinery firm but I wasn't sure I was overlooking something obvious or otherwise going for someone not specialising in kitchens.
We have been considering a siematic kitchen since January and the original priced estimate was within budget, however in the last few weeks, we received a revised estimate through and the cost has shot up to an unsustainable level. I'm having the joinery firm prepare me a sample door and we will take it from there.
Thanks for all your advice again and I will start a build thread for the house shortly as we are 6 months in and st second fix stage on most things.
We have been considering a siematic kitchen since January and the original priced estimate was within budget, however in the last few weeks, we received a revised estimate through and the cost has shot up to an unsustainable level. I'm having the joinery firm prepare me a sample door and we will take it from there.
Thanks for all your advice again and I will start a build thread for the house shortly as we are 6 months in and st second fix stage on most things.
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