Kitchen lighting and power point issues - suggestions?
Discussion
Our house is a rebuilt barn design that had to be modelled on the original barn on the site. As a result the size of window apertures was restricted so we have a kitchen that is 6.7m x 4.3m that has a single window one end and a small French window the other. It's only on the sunniest of days that you don't need to use lights (other than the under unit LED's).
The amateurish diagram below gives an idea of the current lay out:
The cross hatching marks the positions of two oak beams that separate the ceiling in to 3 distinct areas.
The blue dots mark the location of the GU10 downlighters. As you can see there are 12 altogether so with standard 50W bulbs we burning 600W if we want the kitchen to be fully lit. As a result, we minimise the use of the centre section 6 (there are 3 independent circuits, 3 GU10's over the table, 6 in the centre and 3 over the sink end) and have replaced the ones over the table with LED bulbs of dubious quality!
But to top it off the downlighters have not been placed where you want the light; for example, none are over the island! Anyway after 10 years of being here are needs have changed also (kids left home etc)so we are thinking of a slight re-design. See below:
The idea is to move the table out altogether and turn that end in to more of a snug. Eating in the kitchen will be confined to an enlarged centre island. So the challenge is to design a lighting arrangement that satisfies good light over the island with perhaps more of a mood solution at the snug end. I know there are a couple of lighting folk on here so I'd be delighted to hear of any suggestions.
I'm quite happy to chuck a decent amount of cash at this project but at the same time I'd want to minimise disruption. So, for example, is there a way of repositioning downlights without ripping out the ceiling? (Access from the first floor would be very difficult) Could I get what I want without chasing in more switches?
In addition, currently there are no power points on the island which can be very annoying. I'd like to run power to the new enlarged island if possible but realistically I can't see how this could be done without lifting the floor, removing wall units and chasing the wall to the existing ring main. Not an impossible task but a hell of a lot of work. The thought of dropping power from the ceiling has crossed my mind but I just can't see that there would be an elegant way of doing that. Anyone got any thoughts on that?
I've been nagged for over a year now by my wife to do something about the lighting and I know that you guys have a wealth of experience and ideas. Ideally I'd like someone to PM the whole deal but I fear it just isn't a big enough project to interest, for example, a kitchen design outfit. Anyway I look forward to any input you may have.
The amateurish diagram below gives an idea of the current lay out:
The cross hatching marks the positions of two oak beams that separate the ceiling in to 3 distinct areas.
The blue dots mark the location of the GU10 downlighters. As you can see there are 12 altogether so with standard 50W bulbs we burning 600W if we want the kitchen to be fully lit. As a result, we minimise the use of the centre section 6 (there are 3 independent circuits, 3 GU10's over the table, 6 in the centre and 3 over the sink end) and have replaced the ones over the table with LED bulbs of dubious quality!
But to top it off the downlighters have not been placed where you want the light; for example, none are over the island! Anyway after 10 years of being here are needs have changed also (kids left home etc)so we are thinking of a slight re-design. See below:
The idea is to move the table out altogether and turn that end in to more of a snug. Eating in the kitchen will be confined to an enlarged centre island. So the challenge is to design a lighting arrangement that satisfies good light over the island with perhaps more of a mood solution at the snug end. I know there are a couple of lighting folk on here so I'd be delighted to hear of any suggestions.
I'm quite happy to chuck a decent amount of cash at this project but at the same time I'd want to minimise disruption. So, for example, is there a way of repositioning downlights without ripping out the ceiling? (Access from the first floor would be very difficult) Could I get what I want without chasing in more switches?
In addition, currently there are no power points on the island which can be very annoying. I'd like to run power to the new enlarged island if possible but realistically I can't see how this could be done without lifting the floor, removing wall units and chasing the wall to the existing ring main. Not an impossible task but a hell of a lot of work. The thought of dropping power from the ceiling has crossed my mind but I just can't see that there would be an elegant way of doing that. Anyone got any thoughts on that?
I've been nagged for over a year now by my wife to do something about the lighting and I know that you guys have a wealth of experience and ideas. Ideally I'd like someone to PM the whole deal but I fear it just isn't a big enough project to interest, for example, a kitchen design outfit. Anyway I look forward to any input you may have.
I make furniture for a living and 80% of my work is kitchens and 50% of fitting those kitchens you find that the downlighting is in the wrong place. Generally the sparky comes along drills more holes, fishes the cables across and plasterer/builder comes along and makes good the ceiling. Normally there is so much cable hanging about in the void this isn't a problem.
Ref the island why not have hanging lights , generallly always look nice and add a touch of design. Sparks could easily chop out ceiling from beneath and feed cable through, no need for access from above. Worse case secenio is the ceiling requires boarding and skimming if too many holes etc are made which is not expensive.
Depending on what type of floor you have, I've seen sparks on more than one occasion where tiles are fitted (sometimes cut a wider grout line) run cables between joints sometimes in conduit other times just covered over with grout. I'd assume the later is not quite legal however it' does get you power to the island.
HtTH
Ref the island why not have hanging lights , generallly always look nice and add a touch of design. Sparks could easily chop out ceiling from beneath and feed cable through, no need for access from above. Worse case secenio is the ceiling requires boarding and skimming if too many holes etc are made which is not expensive.
Depending on what type of floor you have, I've seen sparks on more than one occasion where tiles are fitted (sometimes cut a wider grout line) run cables between joints sometimes in conduit other times just covered over with grout. I'd assume the later is not quite legal however it' does get you power to the island.
HtTH
Mattt said:
As a simple idea, why not swap to some LED GU10s very easily and cheaply, then you can run all the lights all the time and not worry about power use?
Well two issues. I've yet to find LED's that I like (colour) plus the current positions are just not right so whilst I may not necessarily change all the fittings and try and find some acceptable LED's I still need to re-design the lighting to put light where it's needed.If you're going to have to replaster the ceiling anyway due to doing away with some lighting positions then consider these http://www.ecoledlight.co.uk/zep2-zep-2-trimless-w... I have them in my kitchen and they're superb with plenty of light and almost disappear into the ceiling when not on. They are also fully dimmable which I think is essential especially in a dual use room and use a shed load less power.
I cannot imagine getting the cable altered to the new positon will be very difficult and I'd suggest having a nice drop pendant over the kitchen island.
As for getting power to the island I cannot see anyway to do it other than chase a cable into the floor or dropping it somehow from the ceiling (assuming there is a ring main cable in the ceiling void that you can get access to.
I cannot imagine getting the cable altered to the new positon will be very difficult and I'd suggest having a nice drop pendant over the kitchen island.
As for getting power to the island I cannot see anyway to do it other than chase a cable into the floor or dropping it somehow from the ceiling (assuming there is a ring main cable in the ceiling void that you can get access to.
cerbfan said:
If you're going to have to replaster the ceiling anyway due to doing away with some lighting positions then consider these http://www.ecoledlight.co.uk/zep2-zep-2-trimless-w... I have them in my kitchen and they're superb with plenty of light and almost disappear into the ceiling when not on. They are also fully dimmable which I think is essential especially in a dual use room and use a shed load less power.
I cannot imagine getting the cable altered to the new positon will be very difficult and I'd suggest having a nice drop pendant over the kitchen island.
Thanks for the advice. I seem to recall having heard of these lights before so will definitely investigate. As for the pendant that was one of my thoughts as it would minimise disruption providing I don't have to provide any further wall based switching. Just need to find something appealing/suitable.I cannot imagine getting the cable altered to the new positon will be very difficult and I'd suggest having a nice drop pendant over the kitchen island.
cerbfan said:
As for getting power to the island I cannot see anyway to do it other than chase a cable into the floor or dropping it somehow from the ceiling (assuming there is a ring main cable in the ceiling void that you can get access to.
TBH, my own thoughts but I thought I'd put it out there just in case someone had a good way of getting 13A sockets to the island without lifting the floor (75cm x 45cm lime slabs btw).Buy a large selection of LED bulbs from screwfix / toolstation (because they are easy with returns) and try a load.
Can't you simply use the angled downlights to get the light where you want it ?
If you don't want to take the floor up the only way to get power down would be through a hollow timber / metal post from the ceiling - depending what's in the room and make a feature of it (I'd channel the floor)
Can't you simply use the angled downlights to get the light where you want it ?
If you don't want to take the floor up the only way to get power down would be through a hollow timber / metal post from the ceiling - depending what's in the room and make a feature of it (I'd channel the floor)
Renovation said:
Buy a large selection of LED bulbs from screwfix / toolstation (because they are easy with returns) and try a load.
Can't you simply use the angled downlights to get the light where you want it ?
Might try that but I still think the lighting over the island needs to be augmented.Can't you simply use the angled downlights to get the light where you want it ?
Renovation said:
If you don't want to take the floor up the only way to get power down would be through a hollow timber / metal post from the ceiling - depending what's in the room and make a feature of it (I'd channel the floor)
Agreed but I just don't see a post or post looking good. As I said, just looking for something I hadn't thought of 
pmanson said:
Give Guy @ Ecoled a call (mentioned above).
I've not used their down lighters but have been impressed with his led strips that we had in our previous house. Guy is also very good at the lighting design part as well.
From memory there is a healthy discount for PHers....
Thanks for that; didn't realise there was a PH connection with Ecoled. Really interested in an overall lighting design I've not used their down lighters but have been impressed with his led strips that we had in our previous house. Guy is also very good at the lighting design part as well.
From memory there is a healthy discount for PHers....
4000k GU10 LEDs: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B007DIJDVE
Perfect colour for kitchens, bathrooms and hallways (but too white for bedrooms and living rooms imho). I have around 35 of these, 20 for over 3 years and have only ever had one fail. I have them spaced at around 1.1m centres on a 8ft-ish high ceiling in the kitchen and they give plenty of light. I also sourced some 4000k LED strips for the under worktop lights but am buggered if I can find any which fit the cooker hood lights (which is a little annoying).
Perfect colour for kitchens, bathrooms and hallways (but too white for bedrooms and living rooms imho). I have around 35 of these, 20 for over 3 years and have only ever had one fail. I have them spaced at around 1.1m centres on a 8ft-ish high ceiling in the kitchen and they give plenty of light. I also sourced some 4000k LED strips for the under worktop lights but am buggered if I can find any which fit the cooker hood lights (which is a little annoying).
Fore Left said:
4000k GU10 LEDs: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B007DIJDVE
Perfect colour for kitchens, bathrooms and hallways (but too white for bedrooms and living rooms imho). I have around 35 of these, 20 for over 3 years and have only ever had one fail. I have them spaced at around 1.1m centres on a 8ft-ish high ceiling in the kitchen and they give plenty of light. I also sourced some 4000k LED strips for the under worktop lights but am buggered if I can find any which fit the cooker hood lights (which is a little annoying).
4000k LED's are the ones we are using in 3 fittings already but the light is just too cold. As we want part of the kitchen to have practical lighting and the snug end to have warmer lighting I think we'll end up with a mix; I just don't know how to go about deciding which/type of fitting and location!Perfect colour for kitchens, bathrooms and hallways (but too white for bedrooms and living rooms imho). I have around 35 of these, 20 for over 3 years and have only ever had one fail. I have them spaced at around 1.1m centres on a 8ft-ish high ceiling in the kitchen and they give plenty of light. I also sourced some 4000k LED strips for the under worktop lights but am buggered if I can find any which fit the cooker hood lights (which is a little annoying).
Do not use replacement GU10 bulbs. They are almost universally rubbish: the light they give is cold, they fail, and they look harsh, as well as getting too hot as they can't have proper heat sinks (leading to failure). Trust me, I went down this route before visiting EcoLED, seeing their stuff, and buying it. One of the best decisions I made during an extensive renovation. You don't need their super-expensive stuff - we used ZEP1s, and they are a fantastic unit. I prefer warm light at 2700k, and theirs are, unlike most LED fittings/bulbs I saw, very analogous to that warm halogen light. Your snug particularly will benefit.
Zone the spotlights so that they do not all need to be on at once. That way, if someone is working in the kitchen or sitting at the island, they can use the spots/island pendant, and whoever is in the snug can use a dedicated, separate lighting that gives a great mood, instead of being spotlit like an escaping prisoner.
Also, I'd spotlight light around the edges of the room and have an electrician hang pendant(s) above the island. Much nicer than spotlights, and means the room doesn't look like an interrogation chamber.
As for getting power to the island, there may well be a service channel under the tiles, running across the kitchen. If so, you only need to take up a few tiles to get power to near or even directly below the island. Check this. You did not tell us what the floor is - it it's suspended wood, you have an easier job.
Is the kitchen single storey - can you fit skylights? Failing that, light tubes like solatubes)? A Solatube transformed the hallway in my old place, that used to be dark and dingy.
Zone the spotlights so that they do not all need to be on at once. That way, if someone is working in the kitchen or sitting at the island, they can use the spots/island pendant, and whoever is in the snug can use a dedicated, separate lighting that gives a great mood, instead of being spotlit like an escaping prisoner.
Also, I'd spotlight light around the edges of the room and have an electrician hang pendant(s) above the island. Much nicer than spotlights, and means the room doesn't look like an interrogation chamber.
As for getting power to the island, there may well be a service channel under the tiles, running across the kitchen. If so, you only need to take up a few tiles to get power to near or even directly below the island. Check this. You did not tell us what the floor is - it it's suspended wood, you have an easier job.
Is the kitchen single storey - can you fit skylights? Failing that, light tubes like solatubes)? A Solatube transformed the hallway in my old place, that used to be dark and dingy.
Edited by Harry Flashman on Friday 7th October 12:17
To give you an idea of our lighting plan in the kitchen - 7.5m x 6m:
4 x zones of spotlights. Each zone has just 3 spotlights - so the room has lighting around the edges, none in the middle. Each zone individually controlled - so you can have each quarter of the room spotlit.
Island in the middle - 3m x 1.5m, with sink. 3 x pendant lights over it, on their own control.
Wall lights x 2 - so you can have island lights on, wall lights on, and spotlights off - so very atmospheric.
Cooking zone - extractor hood lighting, under cabinet lighting, RGB LED lighting above cabinets if you want to have some coloured light fun.
This all means that you can pretty much set whatever mood you want, and zone the room too. You can have bright task spotlighting over a kitchen table in one of the corners, and have a sofa in another corner softly lit by a wall sconce or floor lamp, whilst someone works in spotlights/cabinet lights in the cooking quarter, and someone else sits at the island chatting to them, under softer island lighting.
Everything except the under-cabinet lighting and RGB is on dimmers, so you can very levels too.
Pay attention to your lighting plan! Don't just bung spots everywhere, and beware of cheap GU10 LEDs if you really want good light. Light, to me, is the single greatest contributor to defining mood of surroundings. It picks how colours look, how we perceive our surroundings, affects mood, and it needs to change depending on your time of day.
NB - we did the same elsewhere in the house - bathrooms have 3 layer lighting: spots, mirror and lit alcoves. Bedrooms have ceiling pendants (I hate spots in bedrooms!), wall lights and some have lit alcoves. This is before you even think of adding nice floorlamps etc. And good LED fittings (we used EcoLED spots and Megaman dimmable bulbs in the wall fittings) give great light at a fraction of the running costs of running halogens. Not cheap to buy, but in terms of value one of the best decisions I made. And to put it into perspective - buying the lighting for the whole house with EcoLed and Megaman cost the same as fitting a boiler...Less than £2k. LightwaverRF home automation light dimmers cost just over £1k. It's a lot of money, but in the overall costs of renovating, pretty acceptable...
4 x zones of spotlights. Each zone has just 3 spotlights - so the room has lighting around the edges, none in the middle. Each zone individually controlled - so you can have each quarter of the room spotlit.
Island in the middle - 3m x 1.5m, with sink. 3 x pendant lights over it, on their own control.
Wall lights x 2 - so you can have island lights on, wall lights on, and spotlights off - so very atmospheric.
Cooking zone - extractor hood lighting, under cabinet lighting, RGB LED lighting above cabinets if you want to have some coloured light fun.
This all means that you can pretty much set whatever mood you want, and zone the room too. You can have bright task spotlighting over a kitchen table in one of the corners, and have a sofa in another corner softly lit by a wall sconce or floor lamp, whilst someone works in spotlights/cabinet lights in the cooking quarter, and someone else sits at the island chatting to them, under softer island lighting.
Everything except the under-cabinet lighting and RGB is on dimmers, so you can very levels too.
Pay attention to your lighting plan! Don't just bung spots everywhere, and beware of cheap GU10 LEDs if you really want good light. Light, to me, is the single greatest contributor to defining mood of surroundings. It picks how colours look, how we perceive our surroundings, affects mood, and it needs to change depending on your time of day.
NB - we did the same elsewhere in the house - bathrooms have 3 layer lighting: spots, mirror and lit alcoves. Bedrooms have ceiling pendants (I hate spots in bedrooms!), wall lights and some have lit alcoves. This is before you even think of adding nice floorlamps etc. And good LED fittings (we used EcoLED spots and Megaman dimmable bulbs in the wall fittings) give great light at a fraction of the running costs of running halogens. Not cheap to buy, but in terms of value one of the best decisions I made. And to put it into perspective - buying the lighting for the whole house with EcoLed and Megaman cost the same as fitting a boiler...Less than £2k. LightwaverRF home automation light dimmers cost just over £1k. It's a lot of money, but in the overall costs of renovating, pretty acceptable...
Edited by Harry Flashman on Friday 7th October 12:12
Edited by Harry Flashman on Friday 7th October 12:22
If you have a reasonable budget and will be redesigning the lighting then I'd definitely recommened ecoled and Guy. I didn't get anything from him in the end because the lady of the house changed plans....but would still recommened him.
If you have less budget and don't plan on moving the lights and you have standard GU10 downlighters then something like this
might be of interest. Not cheap at £30, but I found the colour to be good (Neutral White I think in my kitchen) and the output also to be very good.
The advantage is that they fit a 65-70mm cutout and can cover a bigger hole if needed, plus are a plug & play replacement for the mains halogens.
If you have less budget and don't plan on moving the lights and you have standard GU10 downlighters then something like this
might be of interest. Not cheap at £30, but I found the colour to be good (Neutral White I think in my kitchen) and the output also to be very good.The advantage is that they fit a 65-70mm cutout and can cover a bigger hole if needed, plus are a plug & play replacement for the mains halogens.
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