Should we proceed with this sale? Would you?

Should we proceed with this sale? Would you?

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m3jappa

Original Poster:

6,391 posts

217 months

Tuesday 6th December 2016
quotequote all
After a fair amount of searching we have settled on the attached house, we have a good discount from asking.

Pros: lovely looking house with a third of an acre.
In the country but within 10mins of 3 local towns and 15mins from major roads.
We really like it and can see room for improvement.

Negatives:
The house is fairly close to a B road, approx 10m I reckon.
The biggest problem by far:

The plot sits centrally on a larger plot which was divided by the previous landowner. The plot which surrounds it was for commercial use (bizarrely owned by a mates granddads fencing firm).
Those people for years tried to get planning for 7 then 6 then 5 houses. All of which were declined.
Planning permission was then granted for a 10000 sq ft office (commercisl land remember). Tbh I have seen these plans and the office would have been a barn type building which actually looked great and was positioned so it couldn't really be seen).

The land has now been sold to a local developer. We spoke to the current vendor who told us the developer told her that :
We can have the 'triangle of land' at the front
New fencing
He plans to build 3 'executive' homes.

That's all great so we agreed the price and sale based on me confirming this with developer.

Fast forward yesterday the developer calls me (mutual friend puts us in touch). He tells me that he has said none of the above.
He ideally wants to build 5 5 bed but isn't sure if he will get that. Looking at local planning they are very strict, with almost everything beind refused, however this guy did get permission to build 4 houses down the road a few years ago.

The deeds also show a slightly different line than to what is currently being used. The vendor tells us she took an indemnity out 8 years ago so is fine. Technically it looks as if the landowner next door owns some of the entrance to this property, which would mean if we put gates up then they would be on his land.
Conversely we have a right of way to access on the actual road which is the strip of road on his property. So we could both be in trouble.
He has said if the splay at the front is of no use then we can have it, however he won't know for some time as it appears on the plan that it's a splay for visibility for the main road. If you visit the site though you can see it isn't a splay and for some reason it's just been sectioned off legally like this.

We have instructed solicitors and currently sale is going ahead, I just have a bad taste in my mouth as someone has lied to us.

I do realise that if you live in the country or infact anywhere with open ground around it you run the risk of development. My biggest fear is planning isn't granted and it ends up a fencing yard again.

Just to clarify we love the house, it's very easy to make this surrounding plot totally private from us with trees/screening. The house is IMO cheap for what it is in the local 10 mile radius. I'm also aware that when it gets built on then the value of ours could well go up overnight as the concern is gone.
I just don't want to end up stuck there because we can't sell. This isn't out forever home.

Have a look at the map link on here.

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/prope...

Edited by m3jappa on Tuesday 6th December 08:17

timetex

643 posts

147 months

Tuesday 6th December 2016
quotequote all
We were faced, quite recently, with a similar issue. Not specifically the building of houses / commercial land, but more generically in terms of whether we proceeded with the purchase of a property knowing that the local area was going to change (somehow) but not exactly knowing how. I posted a thread in September / October - but the short version is, the place we were buying was about 60m from the existing A428 and we'd factored in the buggery factor of living quite close to a main road - only to find very early consultation plans to upgrade the road - which likely means routing it behind the property (where all the views were) rather than in front (which we couldn't see).

Cut a long story short, we simply couldn't proceed without knowing more - and as we wouldn't know more until Spring next year (at the earliest) the only choice we had was to pull out. The risk of a huge road being so close by was too much to bear.

However your situation is slightly different. The housing, if done properly, could add value to yours (certainly not detract from it) and if it has been bought with development in mind, the developer will eventually (I would imagine) build *something* on it to get his money, even if not the number of houses currently planned. So there are 2 separate things here - the first being what will be built, and the second being what you are promised in terms of that splay, the fencing, etc. But if none of this is actually coming from the vendor of the house you are buying, but from the vendor / developer of the surrounding land, it is somewhat separate from the transaction you are entering into to purchase that property.

As hard as it is, I think you need to take any emotion out and focus on worst case scenario. Would you want to still buy that house if XYZ happened? If it turned back to a fencing yard? If you didn't get the splay? If you would still buy it, would it be at a lower price?

At this moment in time, probably nobody can give you the exact probabilities of XYZ or ABC happening (and this is where your situation is similar to ours) but at least you can decide whether, even at worst case scenario, you would still proceed. The worst case scenario for us was so bad that we just couldn't... but yours may not be. It may be that the house is already priced with that scenario in mind (hence it being cheaper than things around it). It may be that you can renegotiate. If you don't know how long it will take for planning to be resolved, you could even stall the purchase until things become clearer, depending on your position - but accept that the house may increase in value at that point too!

I would start to get things in writing, and find out who is lying (or whether anyone is). Is it the vendor giving you duff information? In which case get it in writing in case you need to raise it after the purchase. Is it the Estate Agent? I had major concerns with how the agent handled the sale to us, and I ended up getting a cheque for almost £4k from them which covered the costs we had incurred up to that point, as they failed to inform us about the things we later found out for ourselves. The developer has perhaps no reason to lie, but also does not yet know the truth themselves - as they can only build what planning will allow.

Sorry for rambling - but it seems like you need to try and get more information first, and ultimately decide based on your own risk profile.

On a side note, why do Potton have such a love of bright orange wood? Their show homes are the same!

dmsims

6,450 posts

266 months

Tuesday 6th December 2016
quotequote all
Think of the worst case and scenario and multiply by 4

No one cares about you

It's ALL about the money

Personally I would run - fast


essayer

9,009 posts

193 months

Tuesday 6th December 2016
quotequote all
FWIW the map view has the wrong house - it's the next house but one to the east.

Does the property boundary go right up to the road? Or does the developer own the gravel/tarmac bit beyond the low fence? Big concern if so, unless perhaps there's some legal agreement of access?



Edited by essayer on Tuesday 6th December 10:28

Croutons

9,807 posts

165 months

Tuesday 6th December 2016
quotequote all
Seller in "lying through their teeth to achieve a sale" shocker.

I asked an Agent what the crack was with the 400 acres around a property I was genuinely wanting to buy, given local development plans.

"Oh really? I don't know anything about that" he said.

"Well here's the page on your website where you're the contact for it's sale" I said...

Andehh

7,107 posts

205 months

Tuesday 6th December 2016
quotequote all
For what it's worth, I would ignore *everything* she said, especially her promises and assurances. Hell, I would ignore what anyone has *said* to you unless backed up.

Based on the above, could you post again all the hard *facts* back into this thread. What is in writing, what has permission and what the council/developer have agreed? You mention your surrounded by commercial land, but developer has bought it for housing? If he can't build houses, he may simply sell it back on to someone more ruthless?

If it is Zoned commercial, the Council might be reluctant to change it in case of future business opportunities. That's what happened near us to a large 'Brown Field' (literally) surround by nice housing.

Edited by Andehh on Tuesday 6th December 10:50

Too Late

5,092 posts

234 months

Tuesday 6th December 2016
quotequote all
dmsims said:
Think of the worst case and scenario and multiply by 4

No one cares about you

It's ALL about the money

Personally I would run - fast
I would be thinking along these lines.

hornetrider

63,161 posts

204 months

Tuesday 6th December 2016
quotequote all
Croutons said:
Seller in "lying through their teeth to achieve a sale" shocker.
This. Ignore everything she has told you - establish cold hard facts.

Soov535

35,829 posts

270 months

Tuesday 6th December 2016
quotequote all


You've been lied to.

By someone with whom you propose to entrust your lives.


Property is ALL ABOUT MONEY. Money brings out the absolute worst in people.



Have a word with yourself.

Walk, no, RUN away.

Actual

680 posts

105 months

Tuesday 6th December 2016
quotequote all
The title says "Should we proceed with this sale? Would you?"

Are you confused? You are buying and not selling.

I think you may be out of your depth here.

timetex

643 posts

147 months

Tuesday 6th December 2016
quotequote all
I disagree with everyone saying, without hesitation, RUN AWAY.

You may eventually run away, but if the property does tick a lot of boxes, it is worth spending the time to (unemotionally) ascertain the facts first.

If the Estate Agent is lying to you (and you can prove it) they are in a world of pain. But you need to spend some time with your solicitor to find out exactly what you would own (including the disagreements about boundary lines) and what your rights are over any land you don't own. I'd also be reading the planning documents submitted, passed and rejected IN FULL and understanding what is happening.

I'd also be downloading copies of the Land Registry plans for the surrounding land and making sure I knew which bits THEY owned and what rights were contained within those as well.

In short, do a lot of homework and find out as much as you can. Then you at least have the basis for a decision. If the property is still right for you, then provided you have the facts you can still make a decision to purchase. But if you can't get the facts, or if they point to a worse case scenario which is not reflected in your offer price, then you need to renegotiate or walk.

Andehh

7,107 posts

205 months

Tuesday 6th December 2016
quotequote all
timetex said:
I disagree with everyone saying, without hesitation, RUN AWAY.

You may eventually run away, but if the property does tick a lot of boxes, it is worth spending the time to (unemotionally) ascertain the facts first.

If the Estate Agent is lying to you (and you can prove it) they are in a world of pain. But you need to spend some time with your solicitor to find out exactly what you would own (including the disagreements about boundary lines) and what your rights are over any land you don't own. I'd also be reading the planning documents submitted, passed and rejected IN FULL and understanding what is happening.

I'd also be downloading copies of the Land Registry plans for the surrounding land and making sure I knew which bits THEY owned and what rights were contained within those as well.

In short, do a lot of homework and find out as much as you can. Then you at least have the basis for a decision. If the property is still right for you, then provided you have the facts you can still make a decision to purchase. But if you can't get the facts, or if they point to a worse case scenario which is not reflected in your offer price, then you need to renegotiate or walk.
Very good advice^. This house still has the potential to be perfect, but you need to be very very clear on it. Boundary disputes can be life wreckers & there are plenty of Pistonhead threads to show this...

As timetex says, find out exactly where the boundaries are, what you would own, wouldn't own & what is ambiguous. Chck both sets of documents - yours & theirs. If it is ambiguous, assume you wouldn't own it & go off worst case but still make sure you are fully armed with facts.

Proceed slowly & carefully, and don't skip the investigations!!!

Lesgrandepotato

371 posts

98 months

Tuesday 6th December 2016
quotequote all
Andehh said:
Very good advice^. This house still has the potential to be perfect, but you need to be very very clear on it. Boundary disputes can be life wreckers & there are plenty of Pistonhead threads to show this...

As timetex says, find out exactly where the boundaries are, what you would own, wouldn't own & what is ambiguous. Chck both sets of documents - yours & theirs. If it is ambiguous, assume you wouldn't own it & go off worst case but still make sure you are fully armed with facts.

Proceed slowly & carefully, and don't skip the investigations!!!
This is what I'd do, remember you hold the position of power here you don't have to buy apart from on your terms. If it needs clarifying get it done.
Also remember no-one else is likely to be as far in to the purchase as you either so I wouldn't worry overly about being gazumped etc.

m3jappa

Original Poster:

6,391 posts

217 months

Tuesday 6th December 2016
quotequote all
thanks all so much for taking the time to reply. i can always count on piston heads! smile

heres the cold hard facts:

the triangle at the front is owned by next door, or at least i can assume that. i have spoken in length tonight to the developer who didn't realise he owned it but agrees it very much looks that way. He also agrees that while he doesn't mind us using it or putting gates in etc someone in the future might not like it.
He didn't sound willing to sign it over although thats not to say he won't.

The 'no mans land' bit between the property and the land, she apparently has an indemnity for. I'm not sure on this yet. although going by our actual deeds for this house it looks like the garage is actually not on our land.

The developer has openly admitted that planning is not a given, he says that if it isn't granted its likely they will sit on it until it is or until they want to sell/release the money (appearance gives the impression he's absolutely loaded).

we do have a right of access from his land onto ours, yesterday when speaking to him he was keen for me to sign that over so i avoid 'maintenance costs' however i think its more a case of while we have a right to it he can't move that road,i imagine potentially we could oppose certain planning by stating we need it.


its such a shame, we love the house and i assure you for that money within quite a radius we won't beat it, everything else around that price is too similar to our current home but 250k more. granted bedrooms might be a bit bigger but apart from that our current house ticks too many boxes to move just for the sake of bigger bedrooms.

I've also got a very foul taste in my mouth, initially we went back and looked after the estate agent told me:
'the landowner play to build 3 executive homes and is confident he will get permission'

that has now become 5 homes he plans and he also potentially owns the entrance to the property.

The developer actually seems really nice, i know a few people who know him who have told me he's a good bloke, when i spoke to him tonight he said he was pleased i phoned and that he had been worried that he had given the impression that he would defiantly get planning when he might not and that he didn't want me to risk buying the property if he can't get planning, his exact words were 'you don't want to be unable to sell it in the future'

i will instruct a solicitor as its not going to break the bank to find out some more.

m3jappa

Original Poster:

6,391 posts

217 months

Tuesday 6th December 2016
quotequote all
Also to add i have looked at the previous planning applications for houses which were iirc about 12 years or so ago. The council appears to reject house based on the fact it would take employment away from that site.
the previous owner of the land (I'm still amazed its my mates granddad and his dad grew up on this plot, years before we even knew each other) had stated in his applications that he would surrender commercial use of this land and would set up somewhere else, but the council didn't like it.

I feel thats why planning was granted for these offices. as it would bring employment. i just fear that in the future the land would be worth a lot less and would end up as something like a scrap yard. i can't say i would buy the land as i'm sure it will always be worth in excess of 200k and i doubt i could ever afford that, especially as it would be nothing more than a 200k garden to me.

m3jappa

Original Poster:

6,391 posts

217 months

Tuesday 6th December 2016
quotequote all
Also to add i have looked at the previous planning applications for houses which were iirc about 12 years or so ago. The council appears to reject house based on the fact it would take employment away from that site.
the previous owner of the land (I'm still amazed its my mates granddad and his dad grew up on this plot, years before we even knew each other) had stated in his applications that he would surrender commercial use of this land and would set up somewhere else, but the council didn't like it.

I feel thats why planning was granted for these offices. as it would bring employment. i just fear that in the future the land would be worth a lot less and would end up as something like a scrap yard. i can't say i would buy the land as i'm sure it will always be worth in excess of 200k and i doubt i could ever afford that, especially as it would be nothing more than a 200k garden to me.

dmsims

6,450 posts

266 months

Tuesday 6th December 2016
quotequote all
Another house will be along shortly .....

motco

15,919 posts

245 months

Tuesday 6th December 2016
quotequote all
It is also a Potton timberframe house according to the details - that's controversial for some. My gut feeling is to wave it goodbye difficult though that might seem.

clarkey

1,365 posts

283 months

Wednesday 7th December 2016
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It may not help, but the garage is great!

blade7

11,311 posts

215 months

Wednesday 7th December 2016
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What was the asking price for the land and how was it described when it was sold ? Find that out and the options may become clearer.