New Build Advice - Which green technology works ?
Discussion
Cheib said:
Sounds great but expensive...
How much would the hardware be ?
How much would it cost to wire/install ?
How much would the ongoing service contract be ?
Assume 4000 sq ft 5 bed house, three bathrooms, four living spaces plus say three other rooms.
I wouldn't get involved in any install where you don't understand it and have to rely on someone else to make sure it keeps pace with future developments. Other people are either unreliable or cost a lot of money and you can do all this sort of stuff yourself easily enough if you're switched on enough to work out how to get a house built.How much would the hardware be ?
How much would it cost to wire/install ?
How much would the ongoing service contract be ?
Assume 4000 sq ft 5 bed house, three bathrooms, four living spaces plus say three other rooms.
The future isn't distributed AV, because the market is limited by the cost of running wires everywhere. It's obvious that the future is smart TVs and devices like Chromecast, which are already cheap enough to be a better bet for most people than racks of expensive kit that are a pain in the backside to keep working as tech changes. Chromecast Audio can already be grouped to give you distributed audio over any device with an Aux or SPDIF input.
All you really need is a decent WiFi network - BT Homehub types won't keep up with the number of devices you'll end up with - and then drop in wires for ceiling speakers back to a suitable place to hide/host an amplifier and a Chromecast Audio. This can be anywhere with power basically, either in the room or in a central location like I've done. My setup is across 9 rooms using 8 CC Audios, £15 Lepai amplifiers and £20 eBay special ceiling speakers, so it can be done very inexpensively if you want.
For video, the only current issue is that broadcasting Sky TV to Chromecast is tricky, but rather than spending the money on AV distribution, just get Sky Q for that if it's essential. Plex, a cheap server and Chromecast is a great setup for most video sources.
For home automation type stuff what you really want to aim for on a new build is an install where your plugs and switches can be relay controlled. Wire back to a central point and then it's relatively simple to add whatever control you want in the future. But I reckon the future will be wireless again, because that's where the market has to be as most people can't easily wire things.
Not sure what's out there that covers this, but there are lots of options that are expensive and not really future-proof. In a few years time Google Home will have replaced 90% of the current market by doing everything that bit better and fully integrating everything. Things like WiFi light and socket face plates that are basically a manual switch and a WiFi switch controlling a relay, integrated controllers for washing machines, feedback form fridges/freezers for temperature, active NFC type tech for monitoring contents.
Overall I am happy to spend money as an investment in lower outgoings a) Because I think utility prices are only going one way and b) I've got maybe ten years left working so am thinking about costs in retirement.
Bore Hole is a possibility. All about the capital outlay/ongoing costs vs the payback though I suppose. As I said we have a septic "pit" so not on mains sewerage as it is...so in theory we could escape paying water rates full stop. I was also reading about rain water/grey water harvesting last night....bore hole might be cheaper than that.
There have been some negative comments above about GSHP vs ASHP....I know bugger all about these at the moment. IIRC correctly from previous reading a lot depends on your current costs and assumption about future energy costs, from what I remember the case for GSHP really only stacked up if your current heating was from oil or gas that you have delivered i.e. if you're on mains gas GSHP didn't stack up.
Bore Hole is a possibility. All about the capital outlay/ongoing costs vs the payback though I suppose. As I said we have a septic "pit" so not on mains sewerage as it is...so in theory we could escape paying water rates full stop. I was also reading about rain water/grey water harvesting last night....bore hole might be cheaper than that.
There have been some negative comments above about GSHP vs ASHP....I know bugger all about these at the moment. IIRC correctly from previous reading a lot depends on your current costs and assumption about future energy costs, from what I remember the case for GSHP really only stacked up if your current heating was from oil or gas that you have delivered i.e. if you're on mains gas GSHP didn't stack up.
Cheib said:
There have been some negative comments above about GSHP vs ASHP....I know bugger all about these at the moment. IIRC correctly from previous reading a lot depends on your current costs and assumption about future energy costs, from what I remember the case for GSHP really only stacked up if your current heating was from oil or gas that you have delivered i.e. if you're on mains gas GSHP didn't stack up.
This is the case. At the moment mains gas is the cheapest option to heat your property by quite a margin, it's also much more flexible and controllable that an air or ground heat pump. Given that our government have guaranteed wholesale electricity price rises to EDF then that's likely to be the case for the foreseeable future. I've been in renewables (solar/biomass/heat pumps/chp/rainwater harvesting) for over 10 years and my choice would be solar PV and solar hot water as the additional costs when building new would be minimal - less than £4k for the kit for both. If your water is metered you could look at using the well water for toilet flushing or clothes washing as it wouldn't have to be treated as it would for drinking. Your biggest savings would be designing low energy from the start.
Edited by 4Q on Tuesday 24th January 10:18
paulrockliffe said:
Cheib said:
Sounds great but expensive...
How much would the hardware be ?
How much would it cost to wire/install ?
How much would the ongoing service contract be ?
Assume 4000 sq ft 5 bed house, three bathrooms, four living spaces plus say three other rooms.
I wouldn't get involved in any install where you don't understand it and have to rely on someone else to make sure it keeps pace with future developments. Other people are either unreliable or cost a lot of money and you can do all this sort of stuff yourself easily enough if you're switched on enough to work out how to get a house built.How much would the hardware be ?
How much would it cost to wire/install ?
How much would the ongoing service contract be ?
Assume 4000 sq ft 5 bed house, three bathrooms, four living spaces plus say three other rooms.
The future isn't distributed AV, because the market is limited by the cost of running wires everywhere. It's obvious that the future is smart TVs and devices like Chromecast, which are already cheap enough to be a better bet for most people than racks of expensive kit that are a pain in the backside to keep working as tech changes. Chromecast Audio can already be grouped to give you distributed audio over any device with an Aux or SPDIF input.
All you really need is a decent WiFi network - BT Homehub types won't keep up with the number of devices you'll end up with - and then drop in wires for ceiling speakers back to a suitable place to hide/host an amplifier and a Chromecast Audio. This can be anywhere with power basically, either in the room or in a central location like I've done. My setup is across 9 rooms using 8 CC Audios, £15 Lepai amplifiers and £20 eBay special ceiling speakers, so it can be done very inexpensively if you want.
For video, the only current issue is that broadcasting Sky TV to Chromecast is tricky, but rather than spending the money on AV distribution, just get Sky Q for that if it's essential. Plex, a cheap server and Chromecast is a great setup for most video sources.
For home automation type stuff what you really want to aim for on a new build is an install where your plugs and switches can be relay controlled. Wire back to a central point and then it's relatively simple to add whatever control you want in the future. But I reckon the future will be wireless again, because that's where the market has to be as most people can't easily wire things.
Not sure what's out there that covers this, but there are lots of options that are expensive and not really future-proof. In a few years time Google Home will have replaced 90% of the current market by doing everything that bit better and fully integrating everything. Things like WiFi light and socket face plates that are basically a manual switch and a WiFi switch controlling a relay, integrated controllers for washing machines, feedback form fridges/freezers for temperature, active NFC type tech for monitoring contents.
As a temporary solution we currently use a couple of Naim Muso's for our Music plus my main Hi-Fi system which is old school but high quality!
The one thing I would say is it's certainly worth having built in speakers...ideally you would want speakers that are both wired and wireless I suppose. If such a thing exists.
The idea of being future proof is great.....its just sodding hard to achieve. Though I suspect we've seen the big change in how the infrastructure works i.e. from a bespoke wired network per system to wireless which is what's happened in the last ten years.
Mine is wired and wireless, I installed it just before Chromecast became a thing and the only alternative was Sonus at £400 a room! I wired back to a central point, setup the amplifiers there, but I also wired back from the TV points in the room, which have audio connectors added.
I added a switch and a local plugin point at the amplifiers, so you can plug a TV or whatever in in the room and have it play over the speakers, or you could plug something in at the amplifier end and switch between the two. At the amplifier end I had a bluetooth receiver which worked well enough, but I also had a Yatse remote control on my phone controlling an XBMC install on a Raspberry Pi that was talking to my server, which works as well as Chromecast does. I had a distribution amplifier there so all rooms could access the one sound source, but it was all manually switched so not ideal. Plex has replaced the server stuff because the app has Chromecast built in and Chromecast Audio has replaced all the manual switching.
I don't have TVs in any of the rooms with speakers in, so I've not had to use the wire-back stuff, but it's there in the future, though in all honesty the TV speakers will be more than good enough in small rooms. It might be useful for playing music vidoes on the TV, but that's 10 years away (children) from being a consideration, so things will have moved on again, so who knows how I'll do that.
If I were to do it again, I'd do it a bit differently, with the CC setup there's no need to wire back to a central point and doing that you lose some local control of volume and source select, that said I think I can change that fairly easily so long as I do it before I do my loft conversion as I still have access to the speakers and can drop new cable into the back of wardrobes where I had the foresight to fit a socket.
I added a switch and a local plugin point at the amplifiers, so you can plug a TV or whatever in in the room and have it play over the speakers, or you could plug something in at the amplifier end and switch between the two. At the amplifier end I had a bluetooth receiver which worked well enough, but I also had a Yatse remote control on my phone controlling an XBMC install on a Raspberry Pi that was talking to my server, which works as well as Chromecast does. I had a distribution amplifier there so all rooms could access the one sound source, but it was all manually switched so not ideal. Plex has replaced the server stuff because the app has Chromecast built in and Chromecast Audio has replaced all the manual switching.
I don't have TVs in any of the rooms with speakers in, so I've not had to use the wire-back stuff, but it's there in the future, though in all honesty the TV speakers will be more than good enough in small rooms. It might be useful for playing music vidoes on the TV, but that's 10 years away (children) from being a consideration, so things will have moved on again, so who knows how I'll do that.
If I were to do it again, I'd do it a bit differently, with the CC setup there's no need to wire back to a central point and doing that you lose some local control of volume and source select, that said I think I can change that fairly easily so long as I do it before I do my loft conversion as I still have access to the speakers and can drop new cable into the back of wardrobes where I had the foresight to fit a socket.
C Lee Farquar said:
With regards to the well and rainwater harvesting.
I have an old deep percolation well that doesn't fill very quickly.
I got building regs approval on our new build to divert all the rainwater into it. Gives you a free, installed rainwater harvesting tank.
What a fantastic idea! I assume you have to get the well surveyed/assessed ? I have an old deep percolation well that doesn't fill very quickly.
I got building regs approval on our new build to divert all the rainwater into it. Gives you a free, installed rainwater harvesting tank.
Cheib said:
What a fantastic idea! I assume you have to get the well surveyed/assessed ?
No. It had been infilled and I cleared it out. I've been right to the bottom and all the stonework is fine. It's over 140 years old so I'm assuming it'll see me out. I never planned to use it for drinking water so there didn't seem much point having the water tested.I also ran a land drain round the footings into it as we were getting some flash flooding until we built up to DPC. That water is too dirty for domestic use though so I will take that off to a ditch at some time.
Good excuse for a pump house!
C Lee Farquar said:
No. It had been infilled and I cleared it out. I've been right to the bottom and all the stonework is fine.
How did you get down and back up again? How deep and large is yours? What about ensuring fresh air etc while you were down there? I'd love to get closer to the bottom of mine to see what is down there. I already have a decent pump and I know I can pump it out faster than it fills again.
Cheib said:
C Lee Farquar said:
With regards to the well and rainwater harvesting.
I have an old deep percolation well that doesn't fill very quickly.
I got building regs approval on our new build to divert all the rainwater into it. Gives you a free, installed rainwater harvesting tank.
What a fantastic idea! I assume you have to get the well surveyed/assessed ? I have an old deep percolation well that doesn't fill very quickly.
I got building regs approval on our new build to divert all the rainwater into it. Gives you a free, installed rainwater harvesting tank.
S6PNJ said:
How did you get down and back up again? How deep and large is yours? What about ensuring fresh air etc while you were down there? I'd love to get closer to the bottom of mine to see what is down there. I already have a decent pump and I know I can pump it out faster than it fills again.
The only hairy bit was when I was about 10' down. I was filling the bucket and I felt the debris beneath me shift. At this time we just had a ladder resting on the debris. Turns out there was an elder branch that had wedged in the well when it was being infilled. When this gave way I had to do the back against the wall and walk up with my feet. I bought a harness then and we fixed a ladder to some box section at the top. I added extra lengths of ladder as we went down. There wasn't that much at the below the blockage, other than some silt at the bottom.
I didn't have a problem with gas. The well was full when I started, I figured it was more likely to fill with air rather than gas.
It's only about 30' deep, about a metre wide but goes to a bell at the bottom.
It's not in the house, I'll probably do some sort of well head.
As it's turned out I had a bore hole sunk last summer so I don't really need any water from it. We've been using to irrigate a biggish polytunnel and fill a water trough.
Evanivitch said:
Cheib said:
C Lee Farquar said:
With regards to the well and rainwater harvesting.
I have an old deep percolation well that doesn't fill very quickly.
I got building regs approval on our new build to divert all the rainwater into it. Gives you a free, installed rainwater harvesting tank.
What a fantastic idea! I assume you have to get the well surveyed/assessed ? I have an old deep percolation well that doesn't fill very quickly.
I got building regs approval on our new build to divert all the rainwater into it. Gives you a free, installed rainwater harvesting tank.
C Lee Farquar said:
Yup, 100' would take a bit more bottle.
I think I'd be looking for a mate who wanted to take up potholing.
30' isn't bad! I don't have a clue how deep mine is. I might try and pull the concrete cover off this weekend and have a look (with a torch). I think it must be quite deep as we're on top of a hill and I guessing the valley floor is 100' below us.I think I'd be looking for a mate who wanted to take up potholing.
We did a renovation a while back. Good call on knocking your whole place down, it'll work out far more cost effective and will have the VAT benefits.
I looked at a zillion different options before deciding how/what to build. We're not on mains gas so went with GSHP - it's excellent. Our entire energy bill (including lighting, etc) works out at an average £60 a month. The house is always lady-temperature spec! We also get a heat fund payback of £2500 per year for 7 years. We put the ground loops in with a mole drain which brought the cost right down.
Borehole for us wasn't cost effective as the water table was about £30K down! Water isn't as expensive as you think (although we do have a harvester for the garden - currently unconnected), it's the waste water that adds to the cost. A Klargester Bio Disc deals with our waste water - about £150 to service and desludge.
We used SIPS for the new extension and 3-bay garage with office above. The garage, for example, cost £22K to fabricate and install (and was up in 6 days, with two blokes). It's an excellent way to build. I'd definitely use it for any building in the future.
I didn't bother with solar as it wasn't cost effective for us - the incentives have changed too, I believe.
There's loads of info on a blog I wrote (I think it's still live, I haven't looked for an age) www.themeadenproject.wordpress.com. It covers quite a lot of detail about the thought processes behind the methods we used, you might find something of use in there.
(Still) Skintemma
I looked at a zillion different options before deciding how/what to build. We're not on mains gas so went with GSHP - it's excellent. Our entire energy bill (including lighting, etc) works out at an average £60 a month. The house is always lady-temperature spec! We also get a heat fund payback of £2500 per year for 7 years. We put the ground loops in with a mole drain which brought the cost right down.
Borehole for us wasn't cost effective as the water table was about £30K down! Water isn't as expensive as you think (although we do have a harvester for the garden - currently unconnected), it's the waste water that adds to the cost. A Klargester Bio Disc deals with our waste water - about £150 to service and desludge.
We used SIPS for the new extension and 3-bay garage with office above. The garage, for example, cost £22K to fabricate and install (and was up in 6 days, with two blokes). It's an excellent way to build. I'd definitely use it for any building in the future.
I didn't bother with solar as it wasn't cost effective for us - the incentives have changed too, I believe.
There's loads of info on a blog I wrote (I think it's still live, I haven't looked for an age) www.themeadenproject.wordpress.com. It covers quite a lot of detail about the thought processes behind the methods we used, you might find something of use in there.
(Still) Skintemma
skintemma said:
We did a renovation a while back. Good call on knocking your whole place down, it'll work out far more cost effective and will have the VAT benefits.
I looked at a zillion different options before deciding how/what to build. We're not on mains gas so went with GSHP - it's excellent. Our entire energy bill (including lighting, etc) works out at an average £60 a month. The house is always lady-temperature spec! We also get a heat fund payback of £2500 per year for 7 years. We put the ground loops in with a mole drain which brought the cost right down.
Borehole for us wasn't cost effective as the water table was about £30K down! Water isn't as expensive as you think (although we do have a harvester for the garden - currently unconnected), it's the waste water that adds to the cost. A Klargester Bio Disc deals with our waste water - about £150 to service and desludge.
We used SIPS for the new extension and 3-bay garage with office above. The garage, for example, cost £22K to fabricate and install (and was up in 6 days, with two blokes). It's an excellent way to build. I'd definitely use it for any building in the future.
I didn't bother with solar as it wasn't cost effective for us - the incentives have changed too, I believe.
There's loads of info on a blog I wrote (I think it's still live, I haven't looked for an age) www.themeadenproject.wordpress.com. It covers quite a lot of detail about the thought processes behind the methods we used, you might find something of use in there.
(Still) Skintemma
That's very helpful thanks...will give the blog a full read over the weekend. The idea of energy costs being £60 a month is fantasy land for us at the moment (living in the house we intend to demolish).I looked at a zillion different options before deciding how/what to build. We're not on mains gas so went with GSHP - it's excellent. Our entire energy bill (including lighting, etc) works out at an average £60 a month. The house is always lady-temperature spec! We also get a heat fund payback of £2500 per year for 7 years. We put the ground loops in with a mole drain which brought the cost right down.
Borehole for us wasn't cost effective as the water table was about £30K down! Water isn't as expensive as you think (although we do have a harvester for the garden - currently unconnected), it's the waste water that adds to the cost. A Klargester Bio Disc deals with our waste water - about £150 to service and desludge.
We used SIPS for the new extension and 3-bay garage with office above. The garage, for example, cost £22K to fabricate and install (and was up in 6 days, with two blokes). It's an excellent way to build. I'd definitely use it for any building in the future.
I didn't bother with solar as it wasn't cost effective for us - the incentives have changed too, I believe.
There's loads of info on a blog I wrote (I think it's still live, I haven't looked for an age) www.themeadenproject.wordpress.com. It covers quite a lot of detail about the thought processes behind the methods we used, you might find something of use in there.
(Still) Skintemma
Reading about your Klargester Bio Disc has got me thinking....our current sewerage ends up in an unknown place i.e. a pit that "drains" somnewhere. When we hopefully re-build that's not going to pass building codes so will have to have a proper solution or connect to the mains sewer.
SIPS construction for the garage is certainly very interesting. We've had a very preliminary costing done...the QS estimated £33k for a timber framed double garage.
skintemma said:
We did a renovation a while back. Good call on knocking your whole place down, it'll work out far more cost effective and will have the VAT benefits.
I looked at a zillion different options before deciding how/what to build. We're not on mains gas so went with GSHP - it's excellent. Our entire energy bill (including lighting, etc) works out at an average £60 a month. The house is always lady-temperature spec! We also get a heat fund payback of £2500 per year for 7 years. We put the ground loops in with a mole drain which brought the cost right down.
Borehole for us wasn't cost effective as the water table was about £30K down! Water isn't as expensive as you think (although we do have a harvester for the garden - currently unconnected), it's the waste water that adds to the cost. A Klargester Bio Disc deals with our waste water - about £150 to service and desludge.
We used SIPS for the new extension and 3-bay garage with office above. The garage, for example, cost £22K to fabricate and install (and was up in 6 days, with two blokes). It's an excellent way to build. I'd definitely use it for any building in the future.
I didn't bother with solar as it wasn't cost effective for us - the incentives have changed too, I believe.
There's loads of info on a blog I wrote (I think it's still live, I haven't looked for an age) www.themeadenproject.wordpress.com. It covers quite a lot of detail about the thought processes behind the methods we used, you might find something of use in there.
(Still) Skintemma
Just worked out who you are (or at least who your husband is!). There'll be a nice 911 RS in that garage, then I looked at a zillion different options before deciding how/what to build. We're not on mains gas so went with GSHP - it's excellent. Our entire energy bill (including lighting, etc) works out at an average £60 a month. The house is always lady-temperature spec! We also get a heat fund payback of £2500 per year for 7 years. We put the ground loops in with a mole drain which brought the cost right down.
Borehole for us wasn't cost effective as the water table was about £30K down! Water isn't as expensive as you think (although we do have a harvester for the garden - currently unconnected), it's the waste water that adds to the cost. A Klargester Bio Disc deals with our waste water - about £150 to service and desludge.
We used SIPS for the new extension and 3-bay garage with office above. The garage, for example, cost £22K to fabricate and install (and was up in 6 days, with two blokes). It's an excellent way to build. I'd definitely use it for any building in the future.
I didn't bother with solar as it wasn't cost effective for us - the incentives have changed too, I believe.
There's loads of info on a blog I wrote (I think it's still live, I haven't looked for an age) www.themeadenproject.wordpress.com. It covers quite a lot of detail about the thought processes behind the methods we used, you might find something of use in there.
(Still) Skintemma
.From what I read in all the build magazines, SIPS is really becoming popular, especially as it goes up so quickly. One thing that puts me off though, is that when I drill into a wall to put something up, I like to drill into something solid like brick or block. Drilling into wood or partition wall does doesn't sit right with me. Just my own hang-up, I know...
Vroom101 said:
Just worked out who you are (or at least who your husband is!). There'll be a nice 911 RS in that garage, then .
From what I read in all the build magazines, SIPS is really becoming popular, especially as it goes up so quickly. One thing that puts me off though, is that when I drill into a wall to put something up, I like to drill into something solid like brick or block. Drilling into wood or partition wall does doesn't sit right with me. Just my own hang-up, I know...
Slat Wall looks like a great solution for garages...and may well work well with SIPS ? https://storagemaker.co.uk/garage-storage-slatwall....From what I read in all the build magazines, SIPS is really becoming popular, especially as it goes up so quickly. One thing that puts me off though, is that when I drill into a wall to put something up, I like to drill into something solid like brick or block. Drilling into wood or partition wall does doesn't sit right with me. Just my own hang-up, I know...
Incidentally, Emma's blog massively swayed us towards using SIPS for our extension and our plans have just been submitted for planning permission. Thanks Emma 
Broadly speaking, we'll be doing/using:
8.5x5m downstairs
7.5x5m upstairs (this is due the neighbour's extension)
SIPS throughout
Triple glazed, near PassiveHaus spec windows
UFH heating
Mechanical ventilation (not heat recovery)
Windows are all west facing so we might have to do something about the solar gain but may consider external shutters and/or an aircon unit.
Broadly speaking, we'll be doing/using:
8.5x5m downstairs
7.5x5m upstairs (this is due the neighbour's extension)
SIPS throughout
Triple glazed, near PassiveHaus spec windows
UFH heating
Mechanical ventilation (not heat recovery)
Windows are all west facing so we might have to do something about the solar gain but may consider external shutters and/or an aircon unit.
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