New Build Advice - Which green technology works ?
Discussion
Cheib said:
Interesting post and thanks for the offer of more advice!
The wood burner point is interesting. We have one currently and wouldn't be without, I think they're great. How that integrates with the house is you have MVHR or similar I don't know. I saw a programme on TV recently where they had one set into concrete with a chimney that I think rather than going straight up had a few bends in it to maximise the time the hot air spent warming up the concrete. Result is that the concrete stays warm for up to 12 hours after the fire is out so keeps the house warm on cold nights/next morning.
Can I ask how you're structuring the relationship with the Architect/Sub-Contractors ? Clearly a house build is a hugely complicated project especially when you're dealing with some of the newer technologies. God forbid something goes wrong but where does responsibility lie for making sure the house performs as intended ? i.e. Who do you go after ? Builder/M&E Consultant/Architect ?!?! Clearly it depends on what the problem is etc
We refurbed our home in London about ten years ago which was nothing too adventurous. AV Contractor dropped the ball a few times, luckily I had the spec etc on e-mail as they'd failed to get things like cabinet ventilation correct.
I've learnt in my day job and some investments I've made over the years that it's important that you understand what happens/who is responsible when things go wrong before they do.
We have a wood burner in our current home and wanted one in the new build but I've been convinced that it will be a white elephant, I am also concerned about a wood burner in a fairly airtight environ, but that's just me. In terms of liability, all parties obviously have PI but the bulk of it will come down to the builder, which is why I have engaged with professionals to ensure that the design detail and specification is really tight and that a bill of commodities (along with other details) have been prepared independently. I am sure I will hit problems, but as a novice with limited practical skills, I have done everything possible to mitigate risk.The wood burner point is interesting. We have one currently and wouldn't be without, I think they're great. How that integrates with the house is you have MVHR or similar I don't know. I saw a programme on TV recently where they had one set into concrete with a chimney that I think rather than going straight up had a few bends in it to maximise the time the hot air spent warming up the concrete. Result is that the concrete stays warm for up to 12 hours after the fire is out so keeps the house warm on cold nights/next morning.
Can I ask how you're structuring the relationship with the Architect/Sub-Contractors ? Clearly a house build is a hugely complicated project especially when you're dealing with some of the newer technologies. God forbid something goes wrong but where does responsibility lie for making sure the house performs as intended ? i.e. Who do you go after ? Builder/M&E Consultant/Architect ?!?! Clearly it depends on what the problem is etc
We refurbed our home in London about ten years ago which was nothing too adventurous. AV Contractor dropped the ball a few times, luckily I had the spec etc on e-mail as they'd failed to get things like cabinet ventilation correct.
I've learnt in my day job and some investments I've made over the years that it's important that you understand what happens/who is responsible when things go wrong before they do.
We have a wood burner in an airtight, highly insulated house. To work you need three things:
1. Room sealed. Our burner has an inlet pipe that goes through the wall and outside. All air comes in through that and doesn't make the room cold.
2. Thermostat. You want to have it burning efficiently, not roaring hot - a good thermostat does that.
3. Back boiler. Over half of the heat our stove generates is taken away immediately and goes to hot water.
With that combination, our fire is easy to light, looks fantastic and makes the whole house cosy (the underfloor heating uses the heat from the back boiler along with our baths and showers). It is possible to get it too hot - at which point you'll find us with all the windows open and wearing t-shirts in the middle of winter. However, you can dial it right down and it ticks over beautifully. There are only a handful of companies that make good stoves that meet those criteria, so you have to search around rather than buying the first cast-iron lump you lay your hands on.
Here's me avoiding having to lift the thing any further than I had to:
1. Room sealed. Our burner has an inlet pipe that goes through the wall and outside. All air comes in through that and doesn't make the room cold.
2. Thermostat. You want to have it burning efficiently, not roaring hot - a good thermostat does that.
3. Back boiler. Over half of the heat our stove generates is taken away immediately and goes to hot water.
With that combination, our fire is easy to light, looks fantastic and makes the whole house cosy (the underfloor heating uses the heat from the back boiler along with our baths and showers). It is possible to get it too hot - at which point you'll find us with all the windows open and wearing t-shirts in the middle of winter. However, you can dial it right down and it ticks over beautifully. There are only a handful of companies that make good stoves that meet those criteria, so you have to search around rather than buying the first cast-iron lump you lay your hands on.
Here's me avoiding having to lift the thing any further than I had to:
We have two woodburners in our new build and that's the only heat source with a back boiler serving UFH via a thermal store.
Plenty of insulation and thick walls but I haven't worried too much about air tightness, I quite like draughts and fresh air.
I guess that's the benefit of a new build, you can decide what you really want. I found the whole process more enjoyable when I decided to ignore what's a currently 'must have' and thought about what I actually like in a home.
Plenty of insulation and thick walls but I haven't worried too much about air tightness, I quite like draughts and fresh air.
I guess that's the benefit of a new build, you can decide what you really want. I found the whole process more enjoyable when I decided to ignore what's a currently 'must have' and thought about what I actually like in a home.
TA14 said:
ELothian said:
3. Ground floor / foundations
We've looked at this extensively and we're now using Spantherm by Creagh Concrete on all projects. It's an insulated concrete slab that sits on strip foundations. They supply and fit so it takes away a lot of the tricky work in getting out of the ground. They charge about £50 per square metre installed so the price is cheaper than beam and block.
Because the concrete is insulated from below it means the floor provides thermal mass (stores heat) which helps to maintain stable temperatures. Temperature variation can be a problem in non traditionally built houses. Effectively the mass of concrete acts like a battery - charges with heat in the summer and releases it in the winter - this principle is the reason old stone houses are cool in the summer.
I've not seen that before. Neat solution: http://www.creaghconcrete.co.uk/spantherm/ho-it-wo...We've looked at this extensively and we're now using Spantherm by Creagh Concrete on all projects. It's an insulated concrete slab that sits on strip foundations. They supply and fit so it takes away a lot of the tricky work in getting out of the ground. They charge about £50 per square metre installed so the price is cheaper than beam and block.
Because the concrete is insulated from below it means the floor provides thermal mass (stores heat) which helps to maintain stable temperatures. Temperature variation can be a problem in non traditionally built houses. Effectively the mass of concrete acts like a battery - charges with heat in the summer and releases it in the winter - this principle is the reason old stone houses are cool in the summer.
The issue was late payment, their product was fine. Not really relevant to the thread, but I'm still a little sore after we bent over backwards to give them a good service, they were happy but didn't keep the the agreed payment terms.
Perhaps more relevant to the thread, the installation teams we dealt with were very competent. They'll get the job done as they'll want to catch the plane back to Ireland Fri PM.
Perhaps more relevant to the thread, the installation teams we dealt with were very competent. They'll get the job done as they'll want to catch the plane back to Ireland Fri PM.
As has been mentioned if you specify the log burning stove correctly it can work just fine with a well insulated fairly air tight new build. I've gone for a eco home specific Tonwerks T-eye these low output stoves draw air up from a sealed hole in the floor having a weight activated flap that closes the airflow off when the logs have burnt away stopping the air rushing through cooling the fire & room down.
Its designed to burn for 1 hr from a full load then radiate heat out for up to 12 hrs as it absorbs the combustion heat into its refractory stone shell rather than overwhelming the room as a conventional stove would.
I've also incorporated an M design LPG room dividing fire, again totally room sealed with all input / output going in / out of the concentric balanced flue. The fire is three glass sided like a fish tank with a very tight fit on the panes so any air loss would be so tiny as to not be of any concern & gives a lovely warming glow & on eco wave mode doesn't put out too much heat again making it useable.
We are still busy working on the house at the moment & having run the under floor heating for a few week on a low setting to dry out the screed prior to tiling I turned it off Sat at 9.30am with an internal house temp of 19c, checked it over 30 hours later following a minus 3c overnight & 4c daytime temp & even with 4 * 6in holes drilled through the floor into the void ready for extractors etc & the chimney not connected up so busy sucking air out it was still 16.5c.
Seems like witchcraft to me as I'm not kidding you the old house we knocked down was freezing cold 20 mins after the heating went off!
Its designed to burn for 1 hr from a full load then radiate heat out for up to 12 hrs as it absorbs the combustion heat into its refractory stone shell rather than overwhelming the room as a conventional stove would.
I've also incorporated an M design LPG room dividing fire, again totally room sealed with all input / output going in / out of the concentric balanced flue. The fire is three glass sided like a fish tank with a very tight fit on the panes so any air loss would be so tiny as to not be of any concern & gives a lovely warming glow & on eco wave mode doesn't put out too much heat again making it useable.
We are still busy working on the house at the moment & having run the under floor heating for a few week on a low setting to dry out the screed prior to tiling I turned it off Sat at 9.30am with an internal house temp of 19c, checked it over 30 hours later following a minus 3c overnight & 4c daytime temp & even with 4 * 6in holes drilled through the floor into the void ready for extractors etc & the chimney not connected up so busy sucking air out it was still 16.5c.
Seems like witchcraft to me as I'm not kidding you the old house we knocked down was freezing cold 20 mins after the heating went off!
I've liked wood burners for quite a while but I see air quality is becoming more of a concern mainly talking about diesel engines but it seems a solid fuel burner is several hundred times worse than a diesel truck for particulate emissions. This may not be a concern in a remote area but in urban and suburban locations maybe it should be considered. I believe there are only limitations on using non defra approved appliances at the moment.
herewego said:
I've liked wood burners for quite a while but I see air quality is becoming more of a concern mainly talking about diesel engines but it seems a solid fuel burner is several hundred times worse than a diesel truck for particulate emissions. This may not be a concern in a remote area but in urban and suburban locations maybe it should be considered. I believe there are only limitations on using non defra approved appliances at the moment.
A lot depends on the burner in question. At the moment as far as I can tell, any company can put together some steel plate or cast iron and sell it as a stove. You can get them cheap off ebay and they're little more than boxes you can burn stuff in - the quality is all over the place and the designs basic. The more sophisticated models are designed to produce a clean burn and maintain it. Unlike a diesel truck, they're not 'under load' so there's no reason why they shouldn't be able to get the fuel into that sweet spot for clean combustion.That's not to claim they fart magic pixie dust, but (as with anything 'eco' or 'energy efficient') the actual end results depend on the owner actually putting a moments' thought into what they're doing rather than just buying the cheapest thing they can find, then turning everything up to full and assuming it'll all work out.
I agree not all wood burners are the same and emissions are highly dependent on moisture and temperature, but from what I have read even the best burners running at optimum conditions are highly polluting both inside and out.
I'm not going to reproduce the whole article here for obvious reason but this is an extract from a recent report that causes me concern.
"Last week, air pollution in London soared to heights not seen since 2011. The usual suspects were named and shamed, including traffic fumes and a lack of wind. But joining them was a surprising culprit.
“We think about half of the peak was from wood smoke,” says Timothy Baker, part of a team at King’s College London that monitors air pollution.
The trendy log-burning stoves producing much of this pollution are marketed as a source of renewable energy that can cut fuel bills while helping reduce global warming. But recent findings suggest they pose a serious threat to the health of their owners, and are also accelerating climate change in the short term.
If nothing is done to discourage log burning in homes, it could become the biggest source of air pollution in cities like London. In the UK as a whole, wood burning is already officially the single biggest source of an especially nasty form of air pollution."
I'm not going to reproduce the whole article here for obvious reason but this is an extract from a recent report that causes me concern.
"Last week, air pollution in London soared to heights not seen since 2011. The usual suspects were named and shamed, including traffic fumes and a lack of wind. But joining them was a surprising culprit.
“We think about half of the peak was from wood smoke,” says Timothy Baker, part of a team at King’s College London that monitors air pollution.
The trendy log-burning stoves producing much of this pollution are marketed as a source of renewable energy that can cut fuel bills while helping reduce global warming. But recent findings suggest they pose a serious threat to the health of their owners, and are also accelerating climate change in the short term.
If nothing is done to discourage log burning in homes, it could become the biggest source of air pollution in cities like London. In the UK as a whole, wood burning is already officially the single biggest source of an especially nasty form of air pollution."
Edited by herewego on Wednesday 8th February 13:35
herewego said:
I agree not all wood burners are the same and emissions are highly dependent on moisture and temperature, but from what I have read even the best burners running at optimum conditions are highly polluting both inside and out.
I'm not going to reproduce the whole article here for obvious reason but this is an extract from a recent report that causes me concern.
"Last week, air pollution in London soared to heights not seen since 2011. The usual suspects were named and shamed, including traffic fumes and a lack of wind. But joining them was a surprising culprit.
“We think about half of the peak was from wood smoke,” says Timothy Baker, part of a team at King’s College London that monitors air pollution.
The trendy log-burning stoves producing much of this pollution are marketed as a source of renewable energy that can cut fuel bills while helping reduce global warming. But recent findings suggest they pose a serious threat to the health of their owners, and are also accelerating climate change in the short term.
If nothing is done to discourage log burning in homes, it could become the biggest source of air pollution in cities like London. In the UK as a whole, wood burning is already officially the single biggest source of an especially nasty form of air pollution."
That article (or something like it) seems to do the rounds every year - the studies on wood burners they all reference were done in 2010. How many stoves in London are clean burn, and how many people are just chucking a bit of the nearest palette on in a fireplace to reduce their heating bills? There are a lot of screaming numbers referenced, but it's really not clear how much an issue this is to residential home owners. As the researches (unsurprisingly) say, "More studies are needed".I'm not going to reproduce the whole article here for obvious reason but this is an extract from a recent report that causes me concern.
"Last week, air pollution in London soared to heights not seen since 2011. The usual suspects were named and shamed, including traffic fumes and a lack of wind. But joining them was a surprising culprit.
“We think about half of the peak was from wood smoke,” says Timothy Baker, part of a team at King’s College London that monitors air pollution.
The trendy log-burning stoves producing much of this pollution are marketed as a source of renewable energy that can cut fuel bills while helping reduce global warming. But recent findings suggest they pose a serious threat to the health of their owners, and are also accelerating climate change in the short term.
If nothing is done to discourage log burning in homes, it could become the biggest source of air pollution in cities like London. In the UK as a whole, wood burning is already officially the single biggest source of an especially nasty form of air pollution."
Edited by herewego on Wednesday 8th February 13:35
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