Plumbers - just WTF is wrong with them?
Discussion
What a load of ste, by the time I'm giving my written quotation I have already won the job - when I go to price work i'll chat to the client and give them a verbal quote, if they accept my verbal quote I'll ask them if they want my quote in writing and if they do I'll hand it to them on the day I'm starting the job.
So tell us millionaire maker, what else you got in the locker?
So tell us millionaire maker, what else you got in the locker?
GG89 said:
What a load of ste, by the time I'm giving my written quotation I have already won the job - when I go to price work i'll chat to the client and give them a verbal quote, if they accept my verbal quote I'll ask them if they want my quote in writing and if they do I'll hand it to them on the day I'm starting the job.
So tell us millionaire maker, what else you got in the locker?
Exactly what I've just said, people expect a trade to turn up, know there stuff, give a good price and then do a good job.So tell us millionaire maker, what else you got in the locker?
No need for fancy quotes and marketing making things seem more complicated to justify extra money
GG89 said:
So tell us millionaire maker, what else you got in the locker?
You're the business genius who can assess things without even seeing them. You (and others) don't understand what marketing is, never mind the finer points of it and how small businesses can benefit.I could point you to a book but you'd already know it all. As for me, I have nothing to add.
I repeat from earlier, I know fk all about plumbing. I do know about marketing. It must be great to be an expert in both...
I'm slightly sceptical that anyone has a magic formula where all of their clients will win EVERY job they tender for. I know I would have certainly paid good money for the formula where I could have won every single contract and named my price. I'm almost tempted to go back into doing loft conversions, I'll be a zillionaire in no time
technodup said:
GG89 said:
So tell us millionaire maker, what else you got in the locker?
You're the business genius who can assess things without even seeing them. You (and others) don't understand what marketing is, never mind the finer points of it and how small businesses can benefit.I could point you to a book but you'd already know it all. As for me, I have nothing to add.
I repeat from earlier, I know fk all about plumbing. I do know about marketing. It must be great to be an expert in both...
technodup said:
but if you're doing a written quote, and one of my clients is going for the same job, my guy will get it. Every time.
Makes me wonder (idly) what effect you can affect on a written quote that you can guarantee such a claim. Method of delivery... email ? there's not that much you can do to make a email a winner in itself. Emails is emails. Hardcopy.... nice envelope, cool coloured paper, tasty letter head. No dirty thumb prints.
Content.... Nice handwriting/sensible font, good spelling, excellent punctuation. Make sure all the sums add up.
Technical stuff..... you've already admitted you know nothing about the actual trade itself so you're going to be no help here.
There's only so much you can do with a written quote and to make it so super competitive it wins hands down everytime is clearly bolllocks.
BUT, I am open minded. Talk to me.
loughran said:
technodup said:
but if you're doing a written quote, and one of my clients is going for the same job, my guy will get it. Every time.
Makes me wonder (idly) what effect you can affect on a written quote that you can guarantee such a claim. Method of delivery... email ? there's not that much you can do to make a email a winner in itself. Emails is emails. Hardcopy.... nice envelope, cool coloured paper, tasty letter head. No dirty thumb prints.
Content.... Nice handwriting/sensible font, good spelling, excellent punctuation. Make sure all the sums add up.
Technical stuff..... you've already admitted you know nothing about the actual trade itself so you're going to be no help here.
There's only so much you can do with a written quote and to make it so super competitive it wins hands down everytime is clearly bolllocks.
BUT, I am open minded. Talk to me.
GT03ROB said:
V8RX7 said:
The point that many miss is that the Tradesmen DON'T have a problem - they have plenty of work and don't want or need to change.
The Customers have the problem.
I guess thats told the customers.......The Customers have the problem.
V8RX7 said:
we are working refurbing a house - it's cold, there is only a cold water tap, a radio and a kettle. There is no toilet and the drains are broken so it stinks of $hit mixed with brick and old plaster dust, SDS drills are going all day as are grinders and circular saws - it takes a certain type to do this job and they don't care what office wallahs think.
thats the bks I spout when I'm looking for sympathy...... I could tell you about the time ...... Followed by another simple fact.
Tradesmen generally don't have the same mindset as office workers - which is fortunate otherwise there'd be no Tradesmen because when you look at the risk V reward it rarely stacks up.
technodup said:
Cerbhd said:
marketing is important and that is why big companies use it,
That is entirely typical of the belief of many small businesses.And it demonstrates quite clearly that they have no idea what they're talking about.
Before you say that small business owners don't worry about these things as they are too busy running around mopping up crumbs of work I'll tell you about me.
I'm a sparky and bought a data company in 2007, ran it for 9 years and retired last year, I'm 45.
Lovely house, tvr in garage, enough money to see me out and sleep well knowing that I've always done a good job, been courteous and polite and never ripped anyone off.
Lots of customers WANT a good, reliable tradesman that they can talk to, not marketing.
I notice that you haven't answered any other of my points and also that you told an earlier potential client that your website wasn't live yet? Not good for a marketing enthusiast surely?
I wish you all the best though, maybe you'll get lucky
loughran said:
technodup said:
but if you're doing a written quote, and one of my clients is going for the same job, my guy will get it. Every time.
Makes me wonder (idly) what effect you can affect on a written quote that you can guarantee such a claim. Method of delivery... email ? there's not that much you can do to make a email a winner in itself. Emails is emails. Hardcopy.... nice envelope, cool coloured paper, tasty letter head. No dirty thumb prints.
Content.... Nice handwriting/sensible font, good spelling, excellent punctuation. Make sure all the sums add up.
Technical stuff..... you've already admitted you know nothing about the actual trade itself so you're going to be no help here.
There's only so much you can do with a written quote and to make it so super competitive it wins hands down everytime is clearly bolllocks.
BUT, I am open minded. Talk to me.
Surely marketing can only help if you are actively searching for work? I'm no longer self employed, I didn't enjoy the work enough to put up with the stress that comes with being SE, but I didn't ever go looking for work. 95% of my work was through recommendations, the 5% was from people seeing my sign written van.
I was turning down work a lot and worked 6 days a week, sometimes 7 if something hadn't gone to plan and needed to play catch up. I was SE for 3.5 years and it was like this after 6 weeks of me setting up.
I'm genuinely interested as to how marketing could have improved my situation, I am a plumber, I genuinely don't know anything about marketing.
technodup said:
ou're the business genius who can assess things without even seeing them. You (and others) don't understand what marketing is, never mind the finer points of it and how small businesses can benefit.
I could point you to a book but you'd already know it all. As for me, I have nothing to add.
I repeat from earlier, I know fk all about plumbing. I do know about marketing. It must be great to be an expert in both...
Turbo, I am incredibly surprised at your patience on this thread. it is full of quite special people.I could point you to a book but you'd already know it all. As for me, I have nothing to add.
I repeat from earlier, I know fk all about plumbing. I do know about marketing. It must be great to be an expert in both...
I bet all these trades people do their own accounts.
Though I know they all make £100k+ as a one man band, those with companies, I bet they do their own websites, don't pay for advertising
They probably build their own cars from metal they have smelted in the furnace they crafted from clay.
Make their own clothes, tools etc. because lets face it, how could someone that isn't an experienced plumbing make a wrench?
So good luck on your venture, from the looks of this thread, you are going to need it.
If it's working already then great, if not, I would suggest running it as an agency where the clients contact you directly, then you contract out. You will have the contacts, more control and a lot more potential.
V8RX7 said:
GT03ROB said:
V8RX7 said:
The point that many miss is that the Tradesmen DON'T have a problem - they have plenty of work and don't want or need to change.
The Customers have the problem.
I guess thats told the customers.......The Customers have the problem.
V8RX7 said:
we are working refurbing a house - it's cold, there is only a cold water tap, a radio and a kettle. There is no toilet and the drains are broken so it stinks of $hit mixed with brick and old plaster dust, SDS drills are going all day as are grinders and circular saws - it takes a certain type to do this job and they don't care what office wallahs think.
thats the bks I spout when I'm looking for sympathy...... I could tell you about the time ...... Followed by another simple fact.
Tradesmen generally don't have the same mindset as office workers - which is fortunate otherwise there'd be no Tradesmen because when you look at the risk V reward it rarely stacks up.
As for the 2nd fact even as a shiny ass office wallah I spout the same st. Times I've pulled down hundred year old lath & plaster ceilings; working underground in tunnels out under the channel coming out caked in chalk dust & reeking of diesel fumes & sweat; or working in West African jungles with no running water for a shower or wash in the morning, then having my a/c pack up in my portacabin, in 85f with 85% humidity as it pisses down with rain, with the septic tank overflowing so raw sewage forms a stream under my cabin, whilst being circled by killer mosquitos, with a cholera epidemic in full flow. The certain type it takes is somebody who realizes the only way they can earn a living is to put up with this rubbish. It's not a badge of honour, but an admission of failure
Tradesmen by & large don't take risk, very few offer lump sums, it's all rates & if something turns out not to be as expected that's an extra to the customer. Any real risk they give to the customer. If they did accept risk they'd be contractors, but that would mean taking a real risk, like managing trades!
Edited by GT03ROB on Sunday 19th February 10:52
Edited by GT03ROB on Sunday 19th February 10:58
Efbe said:
Turbo, I am incredibly surprised at your patience on this thread. it is full of quite special people.
I bet all these trades people do their own accounts.
Though I know they all make £100k+ as a one man band, those with companies, I bet they do their own websites, don't pay for advertising
They probably build their own cars from metal they have smelted in the furnace they crafted from clay.
Make their own clothes, tools etc. because lets face it, how could someone that isn't an experienced plumbing make a wrench?
So good luck on your venture, from the looks of this thread, you are going to need it.
If it's working already then great, if not, I would suggest running it as an agency where the clients contact you directly, then you contract out. You will have the contacts, more control and a lot more potential.
More sceptical than anything else after all he claims his guys win the quotes everytime. I think it's fair to say that's unlikely. In an industry where half the time there are no written quotes he may struggle to make any headway with this.I bet all these trades people do their own accounts.
Though I know they all make £100k+ as a one man band, those with companies, I bet they do their own websites, don't pay for advertising
They probably build their own cars from metal they have smelted in the furnace they crafted from clay.
Make their own clothes, tools etc. because lets face it, how could someone that isn't an experienced plumbing make a wrench?
So good luck on your venture, from the looks of this thread, you are going to need it.
If it's working already then great, if not, I would suggest running it as an agency where the clients contact you directly, then you contract out. You will have the contacts, more control and a lot more potential.
I imagine many trades perhaps could improve with a little help.....but equally, many get by just fine as they are. It is a broad spectrum of people doing work around Britain (& beyond!), no "one size fits all"
FWIW, I really appreciate the advice of those who post here: there are many (who will know who they are!). An Internet forum can never answer everything, but it all helps.
We had three quotes for an extension completed just over a year ago.
All in a similar ballpark....we chose the fella who actually put the shortest (1 page versus 3-6) quote together.
Why?
He included all the elements we spoke of in the 20-30 minute chat when he came over.
The others all missed something (underfloor heating, electric points, etc).
Wasn't rocket science (~£50k sunroom), but was enough to make us believe he would do a good job.....& he did, and has now done a good job for some friends of ours, plus we have had a couple of viewings to help him get other jobs (happy to help!)
He also called back 3 days later to check we had got his quote ok and did we have any questions.
Simple things: keep customers informed, be on time......
FWIW, I really appreciate the advice of those who post here: there are many (who will know who they are!). An Internet forum can never answer everything, but it all helps.
We had three quotes for an extension completed just over a year ago.
All in a similar ballpark....we chose the fella who actually put the shortest (1 page versus 3-6) quote together.
Why?
He included all the elements we spoke of in the 20-30 minute chat when he came over.
The others all missed something (underfloor heating, electric points, etc).
Wasn't rocket science (~£50k sunroom), but was enough to make us believe he would do a good job.....& he did, and has now done a good job for some friends of ours, plus we have had a couple of viewings to help him get other jobs (happy to help!)
He also called back 3 days later to check we had got his quote ok and did we have any questions.
Simple things: keep customers informed, be on time......
loughran said:
There's only so much you can do with a written quote and to make it so super competitive it wins hands down everytime is clearly bolllocks.
BUT, I am open minded. Talk to me.
When you ask so nicely...BUT, I am open minded. Talk to me.
Cerbhd said:
I notice that you haven't answered any other of my points and also that you told an earlier potential client that your website wasn't live yet? Not good for a marketing enthusiast surely?
I wish you all the best though, maybe you'll get lucky
This is an offshoot of a much bigger business. I have several such offshoots in various stages of development, and as such have three sites going live in the next couple of weeks. I'm not daft enough to put all my eggs in the trades basket. Having said that, in spite of everyone here being a business genius with work coming out their ears there are thousands of guys touting for it on Checkatrade, Rated People et al, so I'm not concerned.I wish you all the best though, maybe you'll get lucky
There seems to be a belief that marketing = advertising, and I accept that our industry more generally hasn't helped with that image. Too many sales guys waffling ste on a phone. However I take a much more holistic approach to it. EVERYTHING you do (or don't do) which affects a customers decision to buy or not to buy is marketing. From the way you speak to the materials you use.
I have a degree. I have read endless books. I have worked with every type of business from one man bands to nationals to charities. I have mentors hugely successful in their own right. The one thing which all successful people I've come across have in common is they are open to being challenged. Open to constructive criticism. Open to new ideas. Because successful people don't see it as being put down or shown up, they see it as an opportunity, to make more money, provide an improved service, to make life easier, to do things better or quicker. They accept they can't be great at everything so are happy to listen to experts in other fields.
BTW I'm utterly fine with someone disagreeing with me, that's life. But to rubbish someone when you don't have the facts is not the mark of success, it's a mark of insecurity. The fact trades guys on this thread believe having done something for X years and being busy makes them immune to the market, new tech etc imo is crazy. The world is littered with companies who were big players who now no longer exist.
Things are changing, fast. Customers are more demanding, have less time and have higher expectations. There are things in the pipeline which I believe will start to shake up the trade services market as it is probably the most undeveloped out there. Dinosaurs with a van and a phone.
But this is all good research for me. I think I said earlier unlike most trades I have a very specific client in mind (there's a bit of marketing for you). Over 40? Not interested. In business over 10-15 years? Nope. Under 25 and just starting out? Not interested. 25-35, a few years in and wanting to be off the tools by 40? Not to be running around getting manky with fked knees and cashflow problems at 55? That's my guy.
I'm not going to answer any further questions. There's little point.
GT03ROB said:
It's not a badge of honour, but an admission of failure
Tradesmen by & large don't take risk, very few offer lump sums, it's all rates & if something turns out not to be as expected that's an extra to the customer. Any real risk they give to the customer. If they did accept risk they'd be contractors, but that would mean taking a real risk, like managing]
Spot onTradesmen by & large don't take risk, very few offer lump sums, it's all rates & if something turns out not to be as expected that's an extra to the customer. Any real risk they give to the customer. If they did accept risk they'd be contractors, but that would mean taking a real risk, like managing]
So, the Mother in Law gave us a number for a plumber. Seemed nice over the phone on Thursday afternoon and agreed to pop over to take a look at a leaky tap this morning between 10 and 10.30. Mrs 8 informs me he texted last night to confirm and arrived this morning at 10.15, used Mrs 8's name and replaced the tap (I had a spare delivered overnight just in case) with no bother. He left within half an hour fifty pounds the richer.
A number to keep, I think. In fact Mrs 8 has already recommended him to her extensive whatsapp network and we know he's already booked in for some work at a BTL.
There are good ones out there, chaps. Keep the faith.
Surrey/Greater London borders.
A number to keep, I think. In fact Mrs 8 has already recommended him to her extensive whatsapp network and we know he's already booked in for some work at a BTL.
There are good ones out there, chaps. Keep the faith.
Surrey/Greater London borders.
ex1 said:
GT03ROB said:
It's not a badge of honour, but an admission of failure
Tradesmen by & large don't take risk, very few offer lump sums, it's all rates & if something turns out not to be as expected that's an extra to the customer. Any real risk they give to the customer. If they did accept risk they'd be contractors, but that would mean taking a real risk, like managing]
Spot onTradesmen by & large don't take risk, very few offer lump sums, it's all rates & if something turns out not to be as expected that's an extra to the customer. Any real risk they give to the customer. If they did accept risk they'd be contractors, but that would mean taking a real risk, like managing]
Rob clearly mixes with different Trades than I do - I struggle to find guys wanting day rate most want to give a price so they can hide just how much money they make every day.
V8RX7 said:
ex1 said:
GT03ROB said:
It's not a badge of honour, but an admission of failure
Tradesmen by & large don't take risk, very few offer lump sums, it's all rates & if something turns out not to be as expected that's an extra to the customer. Any real risk they give to the customer. If they did accept risk they'd be contractors, but that would mean taking a real risk, like managing]
Spot onTradesmen by & large don't take risk, very few offer lump sums, it's all rates & if something turns out not to be as expected that's an extra to the customer. Any real risk they give to the customer. If they did accept risk they'd be contractors, but that would mean taking a real risk, like managing]
Rob clearly mixes with different Trades than I do - I struggle to find guys wanting day rate most want to give a price so they can hide just how much money they make every day.
If they price a job under they they just walk and leave the job unfinished. If they are on day rate its 9am-3pm with a couple of hours for lunch and lots of time pissing about getting materials etc.
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