Solar Panels - why bother?
Discussion
Jonesy23 said:
The only thing Government backed that is (almost) risk free are things like gilts.
Subsidies are only ever at most a properly drafted bit of legislation away from being binned.
Thats not true, see earlier post in this thread about government having to pay £136m back when they reduced the subsidy earlier than had been announced. Subsidies are only ever at most a properly drafted bit of legislation away from being binned.
Condi said:
Jonesy23 said:
The only thing Government backed that is (almost) risk free are things like gilts.
Subsidies are only ever at most a properly drafted bit of legislation away from being binned.
Thats not true, see earlier post in this thread about government having to pay £136m back when they reduced the subsidy earlier than had been announced. Subsidies are only ever at most a properly drafted bit of legislation away from being binned.
The arguments about who pays for these things in the long run is also nonsense if you think about it a little. Of course the cost is passed onto the customer/tax payer. When we finally get around to building some new nuclear plants surely you realise you'll ultimately take the costs of them too?
Condi said:
Jonesy23 said:
The only thing Government backed that is (almost) risk free are things like gilts.
Subsidies are only ever at most a properly drafted bit of legislation away from being binned.
Thats not true, see earlier post in this thread about government having to pay £136m back when they reduced the subsidy earlier than had been announced. Subsidies are only ever at most a properly drafted bit of legislation away from being binned.
Or you just regulate the installations out of existence via some technical requirement and indirectly kill the feed in payments that way.
dickymint said:
Condi said:
Jonesy23 said:
The only thing Government backed that is (almost) risk free are things like gilts.
Subsidies are only ever at most a properly drafted bit of legislation away from being binned.
Thats not true, see earlier post in this thread about government having to pay £136m back when they reduced the subsidy earlier than had been announced. Subsidies are only ever at most a properly drafted bit of legislation away from being binned.
You know full well what point Im making.
I have had my 4KwH system up for 3 years now, at the beginning of last year we also fitted a Biomass boiler as we have no mains gas.
With the Biomass we changed from a oil Combi boiler to a buffer tank for the two buildings and installed domestic hot water tank.
With now having the water tank we fitted a solar iBoost which essentially monitors your solar generation and if your exporting during the day it diverts the excess power to the electric heater in the water tank.
For an entire year now we have not had the boiler on to heat the water with the exception of maybe 5 - 7 days due to snow.
With the Biomass we changed from a oil Combi boiler to a buffer tank for the two buildings and installed domestic hot water tank.
With now having the water tank we fitted a solar iBoost which essentially monitors your solar generation and if your exporting during the day it diverts the excess power to the electric heater in the water tank.
For an entire year now we have not had the boiler on to heat the water with the exception of maybe 5 - 7 days due to snow.
My thoughts on Solar Panels.
Our system is now in its 7th year of installation. It is rated at 3.88kWp, and on average to date has produced 3800kWh per year. Our system is south facing and the roof pitch is 30deg. I take readings every month on import, export and generation.
Originally, our electricity meter went backwards when we fed into the grid. Since most PV is produced when our demand is low during the day, our successive meter readings went down. When this was noticed, we had an import/export meter fitted, and we get paid for what we actually export.
Our house had already had a solar thermal system to heat hot water from the sun. This is very efficient and made the addition of a diversion immersion heater to use excess PV output unnecessary.
I know that PV panels are getting more efficient, but in my experience they produce VERY little unless they are in good sunlight. As has already been stated they do not like getting hot, so our peak production hours are those cold clear days with bright sun around March time.
If you are considering the use of battery storage, you need to understand just what happens during your daily power cycle. For most of the year, our electrical use outside the solar generating hours is minimal. When calculating the cost benefits of a 'power wall' installation, you must consider how much you can save and use later each night.
A 6.4kWh powerwall will cost about £4,500 pounds. It will get charged up during the day from excess electric, and is available for use at night before the next charge up cycle. To get maximum benefit, the owner needs to use all that power during the night in order to save a maximum charge again next day. It is only possible to cycle the battery once per day/night charging cycle. Therefore the max savings will be 6.4 units (kWh) per day. If the cost of that is 15p per unit, then the daily savings at best would be 96p.
Therefore; if every day was a summer's day, the initial cost of the Powerwall would be recovered in (£4,500/96p)days. About 13 years.
In practice, the use of the battery storage will not be optimum; in the winter some days will not produce enough excess to charge it, and some summer days, not all the saved charge will get utilised.
So, for me a Powerwall type backup will never pay back.
Our system is now in its 7th year of installation. It is rated at 3.88kWp, and on average to date has produced 3800kWh per year. Our system is south facing and the roof pitch is 30deg. I take readings every month on import, export and generation.
Originally, our electricity meter went backwards when we fed into the grid. Since most PV is produced when our demand is low during the day, our successive meter readings went down. When this was noticed, we had an import/export meter fitted, and we get paid for what we actually export.
Our house had already had a solar thermal system to heat hot water from the sun. This is very efficient and made the addition of a diversion immersion heater to use excess PV output unnecessary.
I know that PV panels are getting more efficient, but in my experience they produce VERY little unless they are in good sunlight. As has already been stated they do not like getting hot, so our peak production hours are those cold clear days with bright sun around March time.
If you are considering the use of battery storage, you need to understand just what happens during your daily power cycle. For most of the year, our electrical use outside the solar generating hours is minimal. When calculating the cost benefits of a 'power wall' installation, you must consider how much you can save and use later each night.
A 6.4kWh powerwall will cost about £4,500 pounds. It will get charged up during the day from excess electric, and is available for use at night before the next charge up cycle. To get maximum benefit, the owner needs to use all that power during the night in order to save a maximum charge again next day. It is only possible to cycle the battery once per day/night charging cycle. Therefore the max savings will be 6.4 units (kWh) per day. If the cost of that is 15p per unit, then the daily savings at best would be 96p.
Therefore; if every day was a summer's day, the initial cost of the Powerwall would be recovered in (£4,500/96p)days. About 13 years.
In practice, the use of the battery storage will not be optimum; in the winter some days will not produce enough excess to charge it, and some summer days, not all the saved charge will get utilised.
So, for me a Powerwall type backup will never pay back.
Edited by Paul Drawmer on Tuesday 21st February 08:07
kapiteinlangzaam said:
At the moment we are still grid-tied. Home batteries havent got to an acceptable price point or easy enough install level.... yet. We are looking to move house now, but its something ill be very keen to do in the future.
As to knocking 20k off the house value... ill happily have sensible discussions all day long... but stupid statements will get stupid answers (as I suspect J64 well knows).
EDIT: No home AC here. Its not really needed, although its a luxury more people are adding. One unexpected +ve of the panels is the insulating/shading effect. Our bedroom is directly beneath the panels and is now significantly warmer in the winter and cooler in the summer.
Its a bit annoying on a thread when you continually berate my statements as stupid. It adds nothing to the argument. Why not aim your stupid comments at the other posters who echo'd my statements?As to knocking 20k off the house value... ill happily have sensible discussions all day long... but stupid statements will get stupid answers (as I suspect J64 well knows).
EDIT: No home AC here. Its not really needed, although its a luxury more people are adding. One unexpected +ve of the panels is the insulating/shading effect. Our bedroom is directly beneath the panels and is now significantly warmer in the winter and cooler in the summer.
Why don't you wonder why the take-up isn't much higher in the UK. It takes a certain type of committed person to say they are going to blight their house with a solar panel.
I have been In my current property for seventeen years. I have an unobstructed view of the south sky with a very large perfect roof area. During that time I have had two solar panel companies come in to quote. Neither made any financial sense.
Solar panels are not a no-brainer in the uk even with the feed in tariff, despite your comments. They make even less sense if you are destined to move before about twenty years, unless you think you will recoup the cost in the house price which I would say is even more optimistic in the UK.
julian64 said:
...Solar panels are not a no-brainer in the uk even with the feed in tariff, despite your comments. They make even less sense if you are destined to move before about twenty years, unless you think you will recoup the cost in the house price which I would say is even more optimistic in the UK.
I agree that the payback time on Solar PV is long enough for the investor to seriously consider if they are going to benefit, or will it be a gift for the next owner.In my opinion, the price effect on a property is neutral, unless the panels are 'rent a roof' in which case they are a problem at sale time.
I don't know how the current FIT tariff works out in terms of ROI. But for our system installed 7 years ago, the finances have proved (as in documented over the last 7 years) to be very sensible investment.
kapiteinlangzaam said:
You said my house is worth 20k less with the panels. It's a stupid statement. End of. Backed up by recent valuations and a dose of common sense.
I'm afraid we'll have to differ. I'm never going to convince you that those panels on your house are hideous. A single panel would have been passable, but the way you've stepped them unevenly down the 45 degree angle of the roof is just terrible, especially as they don't match in any way from the panels on the other side.Possibly its just my OCD and the rest of the world would be fine with them. After all no one else on this thread has commented on them.
Good luck with the house sale.
4Q said:
Temperature of the modules - you lose some yield if the panel gets hot which is why they are better mounted slight up from the roof rather than integrated and also why completely black panels don't perform as well as one's with a silver back sheet
That's interesting. Will Elon Musk's Tesla solar tiles suffer from this do you think? Or are they designed to be incorporated into a new build with appropriate cooling?Oakey said:
NickGibbs said:
That's interesting. Will Elon Musk's Tesla solar tiles suffer from this do you think? Or are they designed to be incorporated into a new build with appropriate cooling?
Cooling the solar panels?! That sounds a good use of energy!julian64 said:
kapiteinlangzaam said:
You said my house is worth 20k less with the panels. It's a stupid statement. End of. Backed up by recent valuations and a dose of common sense.
I'm afraid we'll have to differ. I'm never going to convince you that those panels on your house are hideous. A single panel would have been passable, but the way you've stepped them unevenly down the 45 degree angle of the roof is just terrible, especially as they don't match in any way from the panels on the other side.Possibly its just my OCD and the rest of the world would be fine with them. After all no one else on this thread has commented on them.
Good luck with the house sale.
julian64 said:
kapiteinlangzaam said:
You said my house is worth 20k less with the panels. It's a stupid statement. End of. Backed up by recent valuations and a dose of common sense.
I'm afraid we'll have to differ. ...but you still tell him again that he's wrong.
Targarama said:
julian64 said:
kapiteinlangzaam said:
You said my house is worth 20k less with the panels. It's a stupid statement. End of. Backed up by recent valuations and a dose of common sense.
I'm afraid we'll have to differ. I'm never going to convince you that those panels on your house are hideous. A single panel would have been passable, but the way you've stepped them unevenly down the 45 degree angle of the roof is just terrible, especially as they don't match in any way from the panels on the other side.Possibly its just my OCD and the rest of the world would be fine with them. After all no one else on this thread has commented on them.
Good luck with the house sale.
I have a DIY install on my garage roof.
3 x 250w panels, Mastervolt Soladin 600 inverter and a homemade input meter (volts+amps).
I paid £100 each for the panels. £50 for the inverter (second hand) and aprox £50 on brackets, rails, cable and meter etc.
I get a minimum of 40 watts on a very cloudy winter's day to just over 600 watts on a bright summer's day.
It's enough to keep the house ticking over for free during the day and saves maybe £5-10 a month on our leccy bill.
I don't get any feed in payment because it's a DIY install and to be honest it's more of a fun thing rather than for trying to save any significant money.
Payback would probably be around 3 years.
Here's the inverter...(the messy wires are for a wireless watt meter that I need to tidy up in the trunking)
Photo taken at 7:45am this morning, hence 75 volts and virtually no amps on the input.
3 x 250w panels, Mastervolt Soladin 600 inverter and a homemade input meter (volts+amps).
I paid £100 each for the panels. £50 for the inverter (second hand) and aprox £50 on brackets, rails, cable and meter etc.
I get a minimum of 40 watts on a very cloudy winter's day to just over 600 watts on a bright summer's day.
It's enough to keep the house ticking over for free during the day and saves maybe £5-10 a month on our leccy bill.
I don't get any feed in payment because it's a DIY install and to be honest it's more of a fun thing rather than for trying to save any significant money.
Payback would probably be around 3 years.
Here's the inverter...(the messy wires are for a wireless watt meter that I need to tidy up in the trunking)
Photo taken at 7:45am this morning, hence 75 volts and virtually no amps on the input.
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